District Race

[davidhoy.pt]

We had our district race yesterday and my son's car came in a very close second. This is our second place in the past two years.....close, but not enough. Now, for everyone's thoughts: This years car was a wedge design, lots hollowed out underneath in the front to get weight to the back (covered bottom with packing tape.) 7/8" COM, old school bent rear axles and DFW (nice drift when tuned), EVERYTHING polished to 4000 grit, body polished with graphite where the hub may touch, wheels trued and polished.

I know next year we will use a recently purchased silver bullet to drill axle positions (I am not confident in being able to square by drill press, it's a nice bench top unit). One concern I had this year was how sloppy the axle/wheel bore was after everything was polished, any ideas (we needed to use all BSA stock parts)? I guess a more aggressive COM would have helped? It was 3 wooden tracks. We had no wobble on our Best Track @ pack race, but we had a wobble at times yesterday.

Thanks.

 

[speed bump]

Was the front wobble or back wobble? If back to wide of wheel gap. Front more steer. My car did the same a state council race sat. but ran its fastest time of the day in lane that every car wobbled in. As far as drill press just use a level and do all it all different ways forward and right to left. The silver bullet will help alot! do not worry about COM. You are fine with it. Where back axles canted?

 

[davidhoy.pt]

The wobble appeared to be more of a front wobble. The rear wheels were canted, the gap was a little large, but it was the least I could get away with, without the top of the wheel rubbing the body.

 

[Chief]

[font="times new roman, times, serif"]Hello. I would suggest looking through all of the piX on the forum to get some ideas for the next build!!! (hint) the cars are very thin! Do you have a tuning table? If you dont you should look at the tuning table print from DD4H.[/font]

 

[davidhoy.pt]

Thanks Chief, we don't have a tuning board, what do people use for the surface? We tuned on a piece of sanded plywood that was C-clamped to my table saw top.

Our car was quite thing, 5/8" at the rear.

 

[quadad]

People use all kinds of things for a tuning board - as long as it is smooth, level side-to-side and gently sloped, even a re-cycled mirror (actually pretty nice choice). We used a little more drift for wood tracks, which may have taken out your wobble, but as others have said, sometimes those are your fastest runs. Did the winner appear to track the guide strip without wobble? Sounds like you were right there though. I would think that a little more attention in a few of the areas talked about in this forum and you will impress next year. Maybe even consider finding a wood track to check your car on next year (sounds backwards, but its all about the track you are going to race on).

As far as "thin" goes, in adult league racing where pretty much everyone is using tungsten and most often the 1/4" cubes, a 3/8" thick car at any point is consdered kind of "fat". Starting out with a thin blank saves some time too with the drilling out.

 

[Kinser Racing]

The problem was most likely the bent rear axles. I think you may have been better off running them straight. As for the wheels being to loose in the axle holes, don't polish the portion of the axle that is not in contact with the wheel. /images/boards/smilies/smile.gif

 

[quadad]

Given that you got that far, and I assume you measured your axle ODs prior to assembly, I will throw out another possibility. How light was your original wood block ? Often a very light weight pine block with widely separated grain will yield a looser axle fit. Of course lots of insertion and removal will cause this also.

Many people remedy this along the way with a couple drops of water in the hole. Drilling canted angle axle holes in the future with a new solid carbide drill bit should work real well for you. When you drill the hole canted then you can mark and position (e.g. rotate) your best BSA axles in the hole to present the maximum diameter to your wheel bores.

 

[MWDracing]

Did you take material off the side of the car where the DFW attaches to keep the rear wheel behind the DFW off the rail, and if so how much?

MWD

 

[davidhoy.pt]

Our issue wasn't that the axle was not secured in the block, it was epoxied in place once the car was tuned. I don't understand what Kinser meant by only polishing the area that touches the wheel? Wouldn't the hole end of the axle have contact with the hub bore?

And, I thought rear canted axles was superior to straight axles? The more I learn about this, the less I think I know!

 

[Ryanh]

Our issue wasn't that the axle was not secured in the block, it was epoxied in place once the car was tuned.  I don't understand what Kinser meant by only polishing the area that touches the wheel?  Wouldn't the hole end of the axle have contact with the hub bore.

I'm pretty sure he is referring to the part of the axle that goes into the wood, only polishing the outer end of the axle. As far as the canting, canting by bending the axles seems to be harder to tune versus canting by drilling your holes on the angle and using straight axles.

 

[Quicktimederby]

Rear canted axles are superior when done correctly. Bending the rear axles is insanely diffecult and you would be better off running straight flat axles on the rear. If you dont have the equipment to drill the rear holes on a cant, buy a predrilled block from DerbyDad4Hire. They are $15 and worth every penny.

Our issue wasn't that the axle was not secured in the block, it was epoxied in place once the car was tuned. I don't understand what Kinser meant by only polishing the area that touches the wheel? Wouldn't the hole end of the axle have contact with the hub bore?

And, I thought rear canted axles was superior to straight axles? The more I learn about this, the less I think I know!

 

[DerbyDad4Hire]

How to easily win a cub scout district race:

• Drill your holes using the Silver Bullet, Block or whatever similar jig you have created. Drill the front straight and the rears with the supplied cant pin or 3 degrees. It is very important here to use the right drill bits. The jobber carbides I sell are worth EVERY penny and are a must have. Contrary to opinion, you don't have to have a perfect drill press. I won every race I entered using cars drilled with the cheapest Harbor Freight press. If the press is not square then all the wheels will be drilled crooked but AT THE SAME crooked angle. Of course this does not mean you don't want it fairly close. The MAIN THING is that the table is FLAT and you have set up a consistent fence system. Make sure your drill job is good before you do ANYTHING else. NEVER BEND YOUR REAR AXLES unless you have no other way to fix a bad drill job. At this point you can cut slots into your drilled holes if slots are required.
• Thin to win! But not too thin. Don't waste your time trying to hog all the weight out of the front. Keep the car around 5/8" thick and you will be fine. Put about 1.8oz of weight behind the rear axles and the rest right in front. NEVER cut out the sections of wood between your axle holes and do not cut all the way through your car.
• Use quality wheels and axles. Your axles should press snug into the car without a lot of force. You don't want to have to glue them in. Make sure you prep your wheels and axles using proven methods. Please realize that there is way more bad information out there than good and stick with the proven products that are used at the highest level of racing (NPWDRL). You can get them from me or whatever knock off you choose. You can still win with the right prep on the stock wheels and axles with a bit of work. This is hands down the best forum to get the proper information. Yes I do support it but there is no ban of talk of other products unlike every other board. This is as unbiased of a board that you will find. If you want to know how to run with the fastest then you need to talk to, race with, and join in with the fastest. If you are reading this then you have already taken care of this step. /images/boards/smilies/smile.gif
• I am shocked to hear anyone complain that a car would look clean and complain that there was no graphite. If the rules say dry lube only then i will run my oil process every time. It appears dry at race time and meets the wording of the rules. The only reason people fight the oil is because they are unwilling to learn how to do it and they want to slow the rest down. This might be the DUMBEST pinewood derby rule made from receiving bad information.
• Narrow the front dominant side of your car about 1/16". The biggest issue with scouts cars is that they drag the rear wheels the entire way down the track.
• Make you car a Rail RUNNER, not a rail rider. Rail riding is the irresponsible advice of bending rear axles. There is not 1 competitive pro that uses rail riding and if someone claims to I will call shenanigans until proven. Rail running is bending your dominant axle and spending minutes tuning the car. The dominant axle will sit in a positive cant position and the rears will be negative. Slight adjustments to the front axle will make your car steer. To be safe make it turn towards the non dominant side at a rate of 3" over 4'. Rail running will allow you to take your car apart for a cleaning and reprep without worrying about getting it back together with relative ease.
• Make sure the gap between your body and wheels is around 1/32". A massive common mistake is a huge gap and every tool sold does not give the gap you need. You can easily eyeball this. Just enough gap for the wheel to turn freely. Too much slop = a sloppy car.
• Make sure and build your car to meet your rules. Understand them before you start.
• Never Hammer your axles!
• Never force the axles in so that you have to get a hernia trying to remove the wheel. Relax the holes until there is a nice fit.
• Cover all holes in the car with tape.
• DON'T MAKE IT HARDER THAN IT IS! Follow simple instructions, use the right parts and you are golden.
• If you do lose then congratulate the winner. Avoid being a poor loser and accusing of cheating. It does no good even if you are right. The fact is that the cheating in cub scout races makes NASCAR look like nursery school. Enjoy the race and follow these tips and it will take a large amount of cheating or a very good racer to beat you.

Hope this helps.

 

[txchemist]

I helped two Webelos who had never won and both were very competitive. One boy had a good disposition, but the other was very moody and caused a small riot when he didn't win last year.. He called all 10 cars better than his cheaters. Family problems left him without any help this year and I said I would help. He spent a lot of time learning all the things John just went over, and as far as possible, I let him work on his car and test it on my track. When he went through so many things that made his car speed up, his attitude changed and he began to see that no one was cheating, they just worked harder on their cars and had knowledge he did not have before. When race day came, he was prepared to have a good race, but he understood you get slightly different speeds on each run. He never lost a race, and in the one race he was against the eventual winner, he came out ahead. But, he took it like a champ when the average time gave the other boy that worked with me first place and he got second. I think teaching the boys that they will have a fast car, but they can still get beat by a faster car puts them in a good frame of mind so they are good sports and know that they "Did their best"

 

[DerbyDad4Hire]

I helped two Webelos who had never won and both were very competitive. One boy had a good disposition, but the other was very moody and caused a small riot when he didn't win last year.. He called all 10 cars better than his cheaters. Family problems left him without any help this year and I said I would help. He spent a lot of time learning all the things John just went over, and as far as possible, I let him work on his car and test it on my track. When he went through so many things that made his car speed up, his attitude changed and he began to see that no one was cheating, they just worked harder on their cars and had knowledge he did not have before. When race day came, he was prepared to have a good race, but he understood you get slightly different speeds on each run. He never lost a race, and in the one race he was against the eventual winner, he came out ahead. But, he took it like a champ when the average time gave the other boy that worked with me first place and he got second. I think teaching the boys that they will have a fast car, but they can still get beat by a faster car puts them in a good frame of mind so they are good sports and know that they "Did their best"

You have no idea how much I appreciate hearing stories like this. Dealing with the business side and seeing the ugly side all the time gets old. It really helps me to come to the board and read what you guys write and talk with you. Makes me remember the good side to all of this.

 

[Kinser Racing]

Our issue wasn't that the axle was not secured in the block, it was epoxied in place once the car was tuned. I don't understand what Kinser meant by only polishing the area that touches the wheel? Wouldn't the hole end of the axle have contact with the hub bore.

I'm pretty sure he is referring to the part of the axle that goes into the wood, only polishing the outer end of the axle. As far as the canting, canting by bending the axles seems to be harder to tune versus canting by drilling your holes on the angle and using straight axles.

+1

 

[Kinser Racing]

Rear canted axles are superior when done correctly. Bending the rear axles is insanely diffecult and you would be better off running straight flat axles on the rear. If you dont have the equipment to drill the rear holes on a cant, buy a predrilled block from DerbyDad4Hire. They are $15 and worth every penny.

Our issue wasn't that the axle was not secured in the block, it was epoxied in place once the car was tuned. I don't understand what Kinser meant by only polishing the area that touches the wheel? Wouldn't the hole end of the axle have contact with the hub bore?

And, I thought rear canted axles was superior to straight axles? The more I learn about this, the less I think I know!

+1

 

[Kinser Racing]

I moved this to the building tips section. This is a keeper! /images/boards/smilies/biggrin.gif

How to easily win a cub scout district race:

• Drill your holes using the Silver Bullet, Block or whatever similar jig you have created. Drill the front straight and the rears with the supplied cant pin or 3 degrees. It is very important here to use the right drill bits. The jobber carbides I sell are worth EVERY penny and are a must have. Contrary to opinion, you don't have to have a perfect drill press. I won every race I entered using cars drilled with the cheapest Harbor Freight press. If the press is not square then all the wheels will be drilled crooked but AT THE SAME crooked angle. Of course this does not mean you don't want it fairly close. The MAIN THING is that the table is FLAT and you have set up a consistent fence system. Make sure your drill job is good before you do ANYTHING else. NEVER BEND YOUR REAR AXLES unless you have no other way to fix a bad drill job. At this point you can cut slots into your drilled holes if slots are required.
• Thin to win! But not too thin. Don't waste your time trying to hog all the weight out of the front. Keep the car around 5/8" thick and you will be fine. Put about 1.8oz of weight behind the rear axles and the rest right in front. NEVER cut out the sections of wood between your axle holes and do not cut all the way through your car.
• Use quality wheels and axles. Your axles should press snug into the car without a lot of force. You don't want to have to glue them in. Make sure you prep your wheels and axles using proven methods. Please realize that there is way more bad information out there than good and stick with the proven products that are used at the highest level of racing (NPWDRL). You can get them from me or whatever knock off you choose. You can still win with the right prep on the stock wheels and axles with a bit of work. This is hands down the best forum to get the proper information. Yes I do support it but there is no ban of talk of other products unlike every other board. This is as unbiased of a board that you will find. If you want to know how to run with the fastest then you need to talk to, race with, and join in with the fastest. If you are reading this then you have already taken care of this step. /images/boards/smilies/smile.gif
• I am shocked to hear anyone complain that a car would look clean and complain that there was no graphite. If the rules say dry lube only then i will run my oil process every time. It appears dry at race time and meets the wording of the rules. The only reason people fight the oil is because they are unwilling to learn how to do it and they want to slow the rest down. This might be the DUMBEST pinewood derby rule made from receiving bad information.
• Narrow the front dominant side of your car about 1/16". The biggest issue with scouts cars is that they drag the rear wheels the entire way down the track.
• Make you car a Rail RUNNER, not a rail rider. Rail riding is the irresponsible advice of bending rear axles. There is not 1 competitive pro that uses rail riding and if someone claims to I will call shenanigans until proven. Rail running is bending your dominant axle and spending minutes tuning the car. The dominant axle will sit in a positive cant position and the rears will be negative. Slight adjustments to the front axle will make your car steer. To be safe make it turn towards the non dominant side at a rate of 3" over 4'. Rail running will allow you to take your car apart for a cleaning and reprep without worrying about getting it back together with relative ease.
• Make sure the gap between your body and wheels is around 1/32". A massive common mistake is a huge gap and every tool sold does not give the gap you need. You can easily eyeball this. Just enough gap for the wheel to turn freely. Too much slop = a sloppy car.
• Make sure and build your car to meet your rules. Understand them before you start.
• Never Hammer your axles!
• Never force the axles in so that you have to get a hernia trying to remove the wheel. Relax the holes until there is a nice fit.
• Cover all holes in the car with tape.
• DON'T MAKE IT HARDER THAN IT IS! Follow simple instructions, use the right parts and you are golden.
• If you do lose then congratulate the winner. Avoid being a poor loser and accusing of cheating. It does no good even if you are right. The fact is that the cheating in cub scout races makes NASCAR look like nursery school. Enjoy the race and follow these tips and it will take a large amount of cheating or a very good racer to beat you.

Hope this helps.

 

[MWDracing]

Great advice DD4H and great story txchemist.

MWD

 

[davidhoy.pt]

Thank you for the great advice and input. I know we were close (loosing by 1/2".) But unfortunately, we have been close two years in a row at Districts. I think we/I missed the boat with the rear axles. I think we will start tinkering around for next year: Silver Bullet, Oil vs Graphite (as long as dry lubricant is stated), maybe a more aggressive COM. The one thing I am still not sure about is how to keep the axle/bore from not being sloppy? or is it not possible with stock parts?