We get to go to districts this year...but I know THEY use all the tricks, cause i have seen there times.. here is my question,if you were building a 4 wheel ,no bent axles,and would use oil or graphite car, please guide me to what you would use, I know this car will NEVER compare to the cars times on here, but, please help me decide what to do( single groove ,double groove axles, or stock and re do them, I bought jig a loo, chain saver, krytox, .....we cant round the wheels or h cut or nothing....think back to the almost stock days, and please help me and my son, thank you for your time.
Districts
- Thread starter BULLRAM
- Start date
here they are, thank you in advance for any help
General
• The District Pinewood Race will have only one category for participants. All cars must comply with the specifications provided in the Official BSA Grand Prix Pinewood Derby Kit, by default. The District Committee has provided these rules to further specify and clarify those rules provided in the kit. They are intended as a standard, which Packs should follow in order to allow for a fair Pinewood Race at the District level. Any Pack participating in the District Race must provide leaders and volunteers to assist the District Committee with the planning and execution of the event.
Who can participate
• Only the top five racers from each pack with their original cars. Cars made for a previous derby are not permitted. Each Pack may have up to 5 alternates and all unfilled slots in the race will be filled using these alternates.
Car Qualification Rules
1. Official Kit Required
Only the Official BSA Grand Prix Pinewood Derby Kit shall be used. Use of any other kit will be cause for disqualification.
2. Length, Width, and Clearance
a. Maximum length shall not exceed 7 inches.
b. Maximum overall width (including wheels and axles) shall not exceed 2-3/4 inches.
c. Minimum width between wheels shall be 1-3/4 inches so car will clear the center guide
strip.
d. Minimum clearance between bottom of car and track shall be 3/8 inches so car will clear
the center guide strip.
3. Weight and Appearance
a. Weight shall not exceed 5 (five) ounces. The reading of the official race scale will be
considered final.
b. Mercury shall not be used for adding weight. It is a potential health hazard.
c. Cars with wet paint will not be accepted.
4. Wheels and Axles
a. The wheelbase (the distance between the front and rear axles) may not be changed and
the axles may not be moved from their original positions.
b. Only the Official Scout Grand Prix Wheels and Axles can be used. Wheels and axles
cannot be modified. Wheels may be lightly sanded only to remove the mold projection
on the tread. This light sanding is the only wheel improvement allowed, and shall not
reduce the diameter of the wheel. Further beveling, tapering, thin sanding, wafering, or
lathe turning of the wheels is strictly forbidden.
Revised Date: November 12, 2009 Print Date: November 24, 2009 Page 2 of 2
Thunderbird District, Bay Area Council
PINEWOOD DERBY RULES
c. Only lubrication as shown in the building instruction kit, or lubricants designated as
acceptable by Official Cub Scout endorsement shall be allowed. Graphite may not be
packed into any hubcaps of the derby cars. Any other means of automatic lubrication is
prohibited.
d. All four wheels must rest on the track simultaneously when tested on a level surface.
e. The new BSA Pinewood Derby Colored Wheels will be allowed (ie: red, blue, green, orange and yellow as opposed to black).
5. Ground Rules
a. Only race officials and boys racing will be permitted into the registration and track area.
b. Cars may be lubricated before inspection. No further lubrication will be permitted.
c. If a car jumps off of the track, the heat will be run again. If the same car jumps off of the
track a second time, it will automatically lose the heat.
d. If a car leaves its lane and interferes with another car, the heat will be run again. If the
same car leaves its lane a second time and interferes with another car, the heat will be
run again without the interfering car. The interfering car will automatically lose the heat.
e. If a car suffers a mechanical problem, loses an axle, breaks a wheel, etc., car owners
will be given ten minutes to repair the car and the heat will be run again. If the repairs
are not finished within the time allotted, the car will automatically lose the heat.
f. There will be three judges at the finish line (unless an electronic judging device is used).
At least two of the judges must agree on the winner or the heat will be rerun.
6.
General
• The District Pinewood Race will have only one category for participants. All cars must comply with the specifications provided in the Official BSA Grand Prix Pinewood Derby Kit, by default. The District Committee has provided these rules to further specify and clarify those rules provided in the kit. They are intended as a standard, which Packs should follow in order to allow for a fair Pinewood Race at the District level. Any Pack participating in the District Race must provide leaders and volunteers to assist the District Committee with the planning and execution of the event.
Who can participate
• Only the top five racers from each pack with their original cars. Cars made for a previous derby are not permitted. Each Pack may have up to 5 alternates and all unfilled slots in the race will be filled using these alternates.
Car Qualification Rules
1. Official Kit Required
Only the Official BSA Grand Prix Pinewood Derby Kit shall be used. Use of any other kit will be cause for disqualification.
2. Length, Width, and Clearance
a. Maximum length shall not exceed 7 inches.
b. Maximum overall width (including wheels and axles) shall not exceed 2-3/4 inches.
c. Minimum width between wheels shall be 1-3/4 inches so car will clear the center guide
strip.
d. Minimum clearance between bottom of car and track shall be 3/8 inches so car will clear
the center guide strip.
3. Weight and Appearance
a. Weight shall not exceed 5 (five) ounces. The reading of the official race scale will be
considered final.
b. Mercury shall not be used for adding weight. It is a potential health hazard.
c. Cars with wet paint will not be accepted.
4. Wheels and Axles
a. The wheelbase (the distance between the front and rear axles) may not be changed and
the axles may not be moved from their original positions.
b. Only the Official Scout Grand Prix Wheels and Axles can be used. Wheels and axles
cannot be modified. Wheels may be lightly sanded only to remove the mold projection
on the tread. This light sanding is the only wheel improvement allowed, and shall not
reduce the diameter of the wheel. Further beveling, tapering, thin sanding, wafering, or
lathe turning of the wheels is strictly forbidden.
Revised Date: November 12, 2009 Print Date: November 24, 2009 Page 2 of 2
Thunderbird District, Bay Area Council
PINEWOOD DERBY RULES
c. Only lubrication as shown in the building instruction kit, or lubricants designated as
acceptable by Official Cub Scout endorsement shall be allowed. Graphite may not be
packed into any hubcaps of the derby cars. Any other means of automatic lubrication is
prohibited.
d. All four wheels must rest on the track simultaneously when tested on a level surface.
e. The new BSA Pinewood Derby Colored Wheels will be allowed (ie: red, blue, green, orange and yellow as opposed to black).
5. Ground Rules
a. Only race officials and boys racing will be permitted into the registration and track area.
b. Cars may be lubricated before inspection. No further lubrication will be permitted.
c. If a car jumps off of the track, the heat will be run again. If the same car jumps off of the
track a second time, it will automatically lose the heat.
d. If a car leaves its lane and interferes with another car, the heat will be run again. If the
same car leaves its lane a second time and interferes with another car, the heat will be
run again without the interfering car. The interfering car will automatically lose the heat.
e. If a car suffers a mechanical problem, loses an axle, breaks a wheel, etc., car owners
will be given ten minutes to repair the car and the heat will be run again. If the repairs
are not finished within the time allotted, the car will automatically lose the heat.
f. There will be three judges at the finish line (unless an electronic judging device is used).
At least two of the judges must agree on the winner or the heat will be rerun.
6.
Check out this http://www.pinewoodderbyonline.com/post/rules-interpretation-7267897?pid=1286004479#post1286004479 and http://www.pinewoodderbyonline.com/post/rules-help-7271732?pid=1286004896#post1286004896. The BASX wheels would fit the criteria at the 1.18 od and without the out step removed. Rule read axes cannot be modified? certainly they would allow polishing?
It appears that making a proper rail runner is permitted, just have to get the NDFW to touch. There are several threads pertaining to this.
Start here: http://www.pinewoodderbyonline.com/post/keys-to-win-from-the-pinewood-derby-king-5782181?pid=1272943640#post1272943640
On lubrication it says BSA approved lubricants can be used. Need someone else to chime in here, but oil might fit the bill here.
This rule set is fairly common keep reading up, you'll do great.
It appears that making a proper rail runner is permitted, just have to get the NDFW to touch. There are several threads pertaining to this.
Start here: http://www.pinewoodderbyonline.com/post/keys-to-win-from-the-pinewood-derby-king-5782181?pid=1272943640#post1272943640
On lubrication it says BSA approved lubricants can be used. Need someone else to chime in here, but oil might fit the bill here.
This rule set is fairly common keep reading up, you'll do great.
My axles were loose inside the kit, and lying next to the block. They have to stay there??Bullram said:
This rule irritates me. Technically, if you shorten the block, you'll have moved the "axles". I would definitely want clarification on this. Is the intent to not allow you to raise/lower the axle slots? Or is the intent to not allow the rear wheels to be as far back as possible? Why not?
If the rules are such that on a 7" block, the rear axles have to be no less than 1" (whatever the original slot distance is -- or the front axle can be no more than ~1.5" from the front of the car), I would suggest lopping off the end of the car such that it is only 5/8" from the axle slot. This would eliminate the dead weight on the back of the car and allow for a denser weight placement.
So, your lubrication packaging has to have the official Cub Scout logo/hologram on it? I'm not sure I've even seen such a thing in the Scout shop. I'd expect that Hob-e-lube is the safest bet, here.Bullram said:
You can cant the wheels!Bullram said:
The links IAE posted will (should — I didn't click over to them) cover everything you need.
IAE Racing said:
"b. Only the Official Scout Grand Prix Wheels and Axles can be used. Wheels and axles
cannot be modified. Wheels may be lightly sanded only to remove the mold projection
on the tread. This light sanding is the only wheel improvement allowed, and shall not
reduce the diameter of the wheel. Further beveling, tapering, thin sanding, wafering, or
lathe turning of the wheels is strictly forbidden."
I don't see where BASX wheels would qualify for his rules? I doubt that John lightly sands those down to true them. lol May not get caught, but still.
First thanks for taking the time to answer my questions..so here goes....would you cant the back wheels if you are not going to rail run..I havnt done the rail runner and don't want the this to be slower than just straight on the fronts...will canting the rears make this car faster
Can I still use the silver bullet on his car if the bottom is still that same as stock...it is as flat as new
Can I still use the silver bullet on his car if the bottom is still that same as stock...it is as flat as new
BULLRAM said:
Yes, canting the back wheels will make it faster. It will keep them out away from the rail.
I would say oil is in based on the following link.........
http://www.scoutstuff.org/lubricant-pwd-krytox.html
You can't get a much better endorsement than it being for sale in the scout shop!
http://www.scoutstuff.org/lubricant-pwd-krytox.html
You can't get a much better endorsement than it being for sale in the scout shop!
OK I am going to buy a silver bullet
Got the krytox from the scout shop..have jig a loo...Dupont chain saver....polish paper from 1000------12,000 then from 14,000----50,000 then .25 micron diamond paste...
I am not experienced enough to rail run or set it up...any tricks to just barely making the onw wheel not touch but look like it?
Got the krytox from the scout shop..have jig a loo...Dupont chain saver....polish paper from 1000------12,000 then from 14,000----50,000 then .25 micron diamond paste...
I am not experienced enough to rail run or set it up...any tricks to just barely making the onw wheel not touch but look like it?
John's video gives you the basics necessary to run the rail. Getting the car to the rail requires the steering front wheel's axle to be bent slightly so you can turn the axle head slowly to adjust the steer. Imagine if the nail was straight and you want the car to go to the left. Now imagine bending the axle to that direction so the car steers that way. Most league racers will cut a slot (the K-HOUSE GROOVE) in the head of the nail so you can turn the nail slowly watching the change in direction of the car. That's how the car will ride the rail down the track. Get the car to the rail and keep it there.
On the four wheel touch rule you can drill the non-steering(non touching) wheel 1/64 higher from the bottom compared to the steering side. Then use a bent axle on that side as well. You adjust the amount of touch by turning the axle head slowly. Barely touching is pretty fast. If you do not have a track to time on then go with no touch at all, but it looks close. Rookies can have a hard time getting all four wheels to touch in the first place. Good luck.
On the four wheel touch rule you can drill the non-steering(non touching) wheel 1/64 higher from the bottom compared to the steering side. Then use a bent axle on that side as well. You adjust the amount of touch by turning the axle head slowly. Barely touching is pretty fast. If you do not have a track to time on then go with no touch at all, but it looks close. Rookies can have a hard time getting all four wheels to touch in the first place. Good luck.
Thank you so much...I am nervous but might try the front axle trick.....when I drill the rears with the bullet..I am confused on how far I drill above the slot...can't you tell its been drilled higher than stock I understand it is on the drill press..do you just drill as close to the slot without drilling through the slot
What I do with slot rules (the rules require you to use the slot) is draw my line at about 7/32 from the bottom and drill to the center of the line. Then I sand off 2 to 3/32 of the bottom leaving the hole at 4 to 5/32 from the bottom. At 7/32 there is good wood to drill into. Drilling into the slot is tough. The bit tends to follow the slot and most of the slots are not square across the block of wood. After sanding there is still a slot there. You can cut into the slot that remains so the the new slot extends into the new good hole. I paint the slot so it appears there is epoxy present covering the axles.
You can fill the slots with epoxy and the drill your holes in the slot area at precise marks. The bottom must be flat with this method. You fill the slots with epoxy, dry and then sand the bottom flat. You can minimize the amount of epoxy runover on the bottom by tape covering the area around the slot, place epoxy the remove tape after 15 minutes of drying.
I think most of the slots rules are intended to keep the original wheel base. Remind them that the slots are not square.
You can fill the slots with epoxy and the drill your holes in the slot area at precise marks. The bottom must be flat with this method. You fill the slots with epoxy, dry and then sand the bottom flat. You can minimize the amount of epoxy runover on the bottom by tape covering the area around the slot, place epoxy the remove tape after 15 minutes of drying.
I think most of the slots rules are intended to keep the original wheel base. Remind them that the slots are not square.
Pony any chance you could send me a picture of the new slot..we have a slot on there and after we drill at an anglewith the block,I thought the axle would now stick out the original slot since the angle points the axle at a downward angle..am I thinking the angle is a lot more than it is??
I misssed the computer generation. My computer skills are marginal at best. I ahve no idea how to post pictures and the like. The epoxy does not have to completely fill the slot. If you use that method the epoxy needs to be where you drill--at the top of the slot. The best method is drill above the slot, epxoy the slot and then sanding off.
Do you use a drill press and the Silver Bulit block? Using that method you need to hold the block down by hand. Press straight down so you do not rock the block. Having a fence on two sides helps stabilize the block. I do that method and I also use a tilting vise. I imagine your race is coming soon so if you're stuck using one method, get that method down solid. You want about 3 degree cant at the rears. 2.90 is good. 3.1 on the left side ( if steering with the right front) the car slows slighly. 3.1 on the right rear is ok. The right rear tolerates the greater cant because of the less weight on that side.
Get the rear holes directly across from one another. The closer to perfect the better. If your skills are marginal at this point and it's tough for you getting the holes directly across from one another setting the right rear forward slightly compared to the right will result in a very stable car, but you lose a slight amount of top end speed. That might not matter in a non-competitive cub race.
THere's all kinds of ways to get your holes dirctly across from one another. It depends upon how much time you have before your race. If you're not league racing you use a combination square to get the holes across from each other. Measure on the bottom from the back where you want the axles. Use a sharp pencil to indent slightly in the wood at that point. That's your reference point. Take the combination sqaure and slide it to the pencil as you hold it in the hole. go to the side of the block and draw a line down along the side of the combination square head. At the same time draw a line across the bottom with the square at this point. The line on the side should be exactly square to the line across the bottom. The problem becomes when you change the combination square to the opposite side to draw that line. You still place the pencil point in the hole and slide the square blade up to the pencil. Draw the line across the bottom to check you have the pencil lead in the exact same spot. If you're confident you have the same location then you can draw a line along the new side. I've gone to using a combination square with two heads now days. If you have a good quality square with two heads you can draw the lines on both sides without turning the square over. I use a clamp to hold the square head together against the wood.
There's lots of tools to draw your lines, but i'm not sure how much $ you want to invest or how much time you have. Get the holes as close as possible across from one another. Get them at the same level from the bottom and you'll have gone long ways in getting a fast cub car.
Do you use a drill press and the Silver Bulit block? Using that method you need to hold the block down by hand. Press straight down so you do not rock the block. Having a fence on two sides helps stabilize the block. I do that method and I also use a tilting vise. I imagine your race is coming soon so if you're stuck using one method, get that method down solid. You want about 3 degree cant at the rears. 2.90 is good. 3.1 on the left side ( if steering with the right front) the car slows slighly. 3.1 on the right rear is ok. The right rear tolerates the greater cant because of the less weight on that side.
Get the rear holes directly across from one another. The closer to perfect the better. If your skills are marginal at this point and it's tough for you getting the holes directly across from one another setting the right rear forward slightly compared to the right will result in a very stable car, but you lose a slight amount of top end speed. That might not matter in a non-competitive cub race.
THere's all kinds of ways to get your holes dirctly across from one another. It depends upon how much time you have before your race. If you're not league racing you use a combination square to get the holes across from each other. Measure on the bottom from the back where you want the axles. Use a sharp pencil to indent slightly in the wood at that point. That's your reference point. Take the combination sqaure and slide it to the pencil as you hold it in the hole. go to the side of the block and draw a line down along the side of the combination square head. At the same time draw a line across the bottom with the square at this point. The line on the side should be exactly square to the line across the bottom. The problem becomes when you change the combination square to the opposite side to draw that line. You still place the pencil point in the hole and slide the square blade up to the pencil. Draw the line across the bottom to check you have the pencil lead in the exact same spot. If you're confident you have the same location then you can draw a line along the new side. I've gone to using a combination square with two heads now days. If you have a good quality square with two heads you can draw the lines on both sides without turning the square over. I use a clamp to hold the square head together against the wood.
There's lots of tools to draw your lines, but i'm not sure how much $ you want to invest or how much time you have. Get the holes as close as possible across from one another. Get them at the same level from the bottom and you'll have gone long ways in getting a fast cub car.
Two questions for you:
Should this read as such: setting the right rear forward slightly compared to the left will result in a very stable carpony express said:
I have one of those revell axle drilling guides. I do not use it anymore, EXCEPT to transfer the rear axle location from one side to the other. I do league race and I'm horrible /images/boards/smilies/tongue.gif. Is there a better method? Before drilling, I do use a stationary fence and a magswitch mag square as a side fence before drilling (so I don't miss).pony express said:
You're right. Drill the right 1/64 to 1/32 towards the front comapred to the left will give you a thrust angle towards the rail. It stablizes the car, but you lose some top end speed. I often wondered if those guys who said they could get 3 oz behind the rear axle used this method.
League racing is tough. It involves getting the back axles perfect and then getting the wheels fast. Fast wheels are wheel that are very concentric, perefctly bores roll staright and are quiet down the track. after that the wax prep gets you the last bit of speed to break into the pros.
Getting perfect back holes starts with the Silver Bullit. Get a digital protractor so you can measure the angle of your SB after setting the pin in it's groove. You should measure the SB flat without the pin and then measure the angle with the pin. The difference should be 3 degrees. Some SB blocks have different depths of their grooves. My groove requires I use a .1200 pin gauge for the rod rather than the supplied 1/8 rod. I use a pin gauge under both ends. They sell longer pin gauges (4 inches vs 2), buy they are expensive. I think TRE posted a picture of a digital protractor last night or this morning.
I use the two fence system. I have glued shims to the fences so when I drill the holes they are exacly where I want them. I don't need the magnet anymore or a X-Y table with that system.
Develop a system to check your holes for being square and directly across from one another. I use something like Gravity uses. He uses a graph paper. Get some 6 inch aircraft drill bits #43. insert them into your holes and use a machinist square to check for squareness. That's a start. Then insert a aircraft drill bit into both rear holes and place the car on the graph paper. I use a fence for the body of the block. The drill bits should line up along the same lines as the body is square to the back lines. That gives you a zero thrust angle. Getting this down will help a long ways to the pros.
League racing is tough. It involves getting the back axles perfect and then getting the wheels fast. Fast wheels are wheel that are very concentric, perefctly bores roll staright and are quiet down the track. after that the wax prep gets you the last bit of speed to break into the pros.
Getting perfect back holes starts with the Silver Bullit. Get a digital protractor so you can measure the angle of your SB after setting the pin in it's groove. You should measure the SB flat without the pin and then measure the angle with the pin. The difference should be 3 degrees. Some SB blocks have different depths of their grooves. My groove requires I use a .1200 pin gauge for the rod rather than the supplied 1/8 rod. I use a pin gauge under both ends. They sell longer pin gauges (4 inches vs 2), buy they are expensive. I think TRE posted a picture of a digital protractor last night or this morning.
I use the two fence system. I have glued shims to the fences so when I drill the holes they are exacly where I want them. I don't need the magnet anymore or a X-Y table with that system.
Develop a system to check your holes for being square and directly across from one another. I use something like Gravity uses. He uses a graph paper. Get some 6 inch aircraft drill bits #43. insert them into your holes and use a machinist square to check for squareness. That's a start. Then insert a aircraft drill bit into both rear holes and place the car on the graph paper. I use a fence for the body of the block. The drill bits should line up along the same lines as the body is square to the back lines. That gives you a zero thrust angle. Getting this down will help a long ways to the pros.
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