First Time on This Forum -- Hi

[jeharriman1]

Hi first time on this forum,

I am a cub scout parent and like my son, I use to race in the Pinewood derby when I was a scout. Remembering a few tricks up my sleeve from when I was a kid and applying them to my son’s car he always wins his Den and either wins his Pack or places in the top three of his Pack. At district he normally runs in the top middle of his pack, so I feel pretty good about his performance. This year I couldn’t sit idle anymore and I built my own car last minute to compete in the open race. My sons car was still faster than mine, but I had a good time racing with him. We are both going to race our car’s in the district open.

As I have now been fully bitten by the Derby bug I am wanting to take our cars to the next level. I polish our axles with one of the store bought kits that starts with 400-grit taking it 2000-grit and then use a diamond compound. I run with just about 1-oz of wood weight and the rest about 3.5-oz of tungsten buried into the body, I run the tungsten as close to .75-inch to 1.0-inch in front of the rear wheel axle. I don’t touch the wheels (trim any weight off) as the rules prohibit that, but I do true the wheels. I have not run bent axles yet and the only reason is I just have not made the purchase, I do have access and think I am going to use them for district. I do run 3-wheels on the ground instead of 4-wheels. I also extend the wheel base out as far as the rules allow. We can only use graphite as a lubricant and I use XLR8 graphite which I can purchase at hobby lobby, it seems to be very fine, and finer than any other graphite that I can get my hands on. When I paint the car I place a piece of tape over the axle holes so no paint gets where the wheel will touch the body during the race. We always run a simple wedge design as it has proven the best results.

On a 40-ft track this year my son was consistently running 3.629 times and I was running consistent times of 3.700. I would like to know if there are some other easy tips that I have missed. To me it seems like we have done all we can without bending axles and shaving wheels…maybe take some more wood weight out of the car? I want to take our cars to the next level, but not sure exactly how?

I think this forum is awesome and really glad that ran across it, already bookmarked it.

 

[CivilWarTalk]

Lots of good information about your cars here, but to really help properly we also would want to know about your track. I'm very curious to know what 40-ft track has fast runs of 3.6 seconds, is this a wooden track, plastic track, or aluminum track? If you know the brand name, if it has one, that's a big help. A photo of the track would also help!

A photo of your car would help too!

 

[jeharriman1]

Derby Car 1 is my car and Derby Car 2 is my sons car. The track is aluminum and I dont know the brand name of the track. I do know the track is a major brand, but it is not "Best Track"

 

[CivilWarTalk]

Derby Car 1 is my car and Derby Car 2 is my sons car. The track is aluminum and I dont know the brand name of the track. I do know the track is a major brand, but it is not "Best Track"

Sounds like maybe a Freedom track? That's helpful!

So if you can run on 3 wheels touching with a bent axle the you'll want to employ rail running, thats where you cant the rears by drilling the axle holes at 3 degrees and the use a bent axle to steer the car along the rail, this is your dominant front wheel.

If you can legally run oil, it will also improve your performanc but you need to learn the oil process!

 

[GravityX]

Welcome to the forum, you have found the right place! Canted rear axles is a must, reducing (the wood) body weight and using 1/4" tungsten cubes will help to maximize the potential energy of the car, more horsepower. You need some weight behind that rear axle. Thin to win is the motto around here. Purchase a precut body from DD4H to get an idea what a Pro body looks like and how it's made. Good Luck

 

[DerbyDad4Hire]

CivilWarTalk hit it on the head. If you get the block drilled right you can get to the next level.

 

[CH3NO2]

Welcome and my two boys use Derbydad4hire's graphite, axle polish and wheel bore polishing kits.
We have had tremendous success with his products and the advice on this forum from the Pro's here.
If your budget allows I would purchase a Silver Bullet or Pro to help with those perfectly aligned drills and cants
I would skip the painting and go with a skin on the top and bottom of the bodies, it is way easier to apply for the kids and you know what the exact weight is every time. We precut one and then peel the backing off and roll it in a ball and weigh it.
Boom, now you know what the skin on the car will weigh every time.
We have tried painting cars in the past and had to sand and repaint multiple times to get the weight right.
A skin makes it that much easier and streamlined for the kids.

 

[jeharriman1]

Thanks for the quick tips, looks like axle bending is in my near future! I have never placed weight behind the rear axle, in fear of loosing control (being too back heavy). It also looks like tungsten plates or cubes is the way to go for the thinnest solution.

Any tips on axles? I polish to 2000-grit and then use a diamond compound. But is that enough? I have just purchased some machined axles for the first time to run against my axles and compare (I feel a little dirty using purchased axles...lol). The axles I bought were (.091" vs BSA .088") and nickle plated. Just trying some different things.

 

[CivilWarTalk]

If you haven't already discovered 5kids' site, you should bookmark and watch the videos on the homepage:

http://5kidsracing.webs.com/

It's a good starting point for working on wheels, axles, doing the drill job, and tuning the car. Once you've mastered these skills you'll have a good foundation for speed.

 

[CH3NO2]

I wouldn't bend the axles, I think it is way too hard to tune the cars that way myself.
I would drill the holes canted with a Silver Bullet, that will take you to the next level.
I would suggest buying this polishing kit http://www.derbydad4hire.com/Zero-Friction-Axle-Polishing-Kit-POL-KA.htm,
I only use the BSA nails and file and polish them with this kit. But we race in Scouts and aftermarket axles are not allowed, so we go by the rules, now I have purchased after market axles and reverse engineered my BSA axles to match them in some ways

 

[CivilWarTalk]

If you look in a Craft store like Hobby Lobby you can find sandpaper grits 1000, 2000, 4000, 6000, 12000, that will also help improve the axle polishing game!

 

[CivilWarTalk]

DD4H wrote this a few years back, I'm not sure what happened to the original thread, but I kept a copy on my computer:

Drill your holes using the Silver Bullet, Block or whatever similar jig you have created. Drill the front straight and the rears with the supplied cant pin or 3 degrees. It is very important here to use the right drill bits. The jobber carbides I sell are worth EVERY penny and are a must have. Contrary to opinion, you don't have to have a perfect drill press. I won every race I entered using cars drilled with the cheapest Harbor Freight press. If the press is not square then all the wheels will be drilled crooked but AT THE SAME crooked angle. Of course this does not mean you don't want it fairly close. The MAIN THING is that the table is FLAT and you have set up a consistent fence system. Make sure your drill job is good before you do ANYTHING else. NEVER BEND YOUR REAR AXLES unless you have no other way to fix a bad drill job. At this point you can cut slots into your drilled holes if slots are required. ​

Thin to win! But not too thin. Don't waste your time trying to hog all the weight out of the front. Keep the car around 5/8" thick and you will be fine. Put about 1.8oz of weight behind the rear axles and the rest right in front. NEVER cut out the sections of wood between your axle holes and do not cut all the way through your car.

Use quality wheels and axles. Your axles should press snug into the car without a lot of force. You don't want to have to glue them in. Make sure you prep your wheels and axles using proven methods. Please realize that there is way more bad information out there than good and stick with the proven products that are used at the highest level of racing (NPWDRL). You can get them from me or whatever knock off you choose. You can still win with the right prep on the stock wheels and axles with a bit of work. This is hands down the best forum to get the proper information. Yes I do support it but there is no ban of talk of other products unlike every other board. This is as unbiased of a board that you will find. If you want to know how to run with the fastest then you need to talk to, race with, and join in with the fastest. If you are reading this then you have already taken care of this step.

I am shocked to hear anyone complain that a car would look clean and complain that there was no graphite. If the rules say dry lube only then i will run my oil process every time. It appears dry at race time and meets the wording of the rules. The only reason people fight the oil is because they are unwilling to learn how to do it and they want to slow the rest down. This might be the DUMBEST pinewood derby rule made from receiving bad information.

Narrow the front dominant side of your car about 1/16". The biggest issue with scouts cars is that they drag the rear wheels the entire way down the track.

Make you car a Rail RUNNER, not a rail rider. Rail riding is the irresponsible advice of bending rear axles. There is not 1 competitive pro that uses rail riding and if someone claims to I will call shenanigans until proven. Rail running is bending your dominant axle and spending minutes tuning the car. The dominant axle will sit in a positive cant position and the rears will be negative. Slight adjustments to the front axle will make your car steer. To be safe make it turn towards the non dominant side at a rate of 3" over 4'. Rail running will allow you to take your car apart for a cleaning and reprep without worrying about getting it back together with relative ease.

Make sure the gap between your body and wheels is around 1/32". A massive common mistake is a huge gap and every tool sold does not give the gap you need. You can easily eyeball this. Just enough gap for the wheel to turn freely. Too much slop = a sloppy car.

Make sure and build your car to meet your rules. Understand them before you start.

Never Hammer your axles!

Never force the axles in so that you have to get a hernia trying to remove the wheel. Relax the holes until there is a nice fit.

Cover all holes in the car with tape.

DON'T MAKE IT HARDER THAN IT IS! Follow simple instructions, use the right parts and you are golden.
If you do lose then congratulate the winner. Avoid being a poor loser and accusing of cheating. It does no good even if you are right. The fact is that the cheating in cub scout races makes NASCAR look like nursery school. Enjoy the race and follow these tips and it will take a large amount of cheating or a very good racer to beat you.

Hope this helps.

DerbyDad4Hire​

 

[jeharriman1]

All these tips are really awesome, I greatly appreciate it. I realize that I have some work to do, but really excited to make some of these improvements. Luckily a harbor freight is right down the road so a bench drill press is in my immediate future Im not going anywhere so I'll keep everyone posted. Many thanks!

 

[Crash Enburn]

I believe their current flyer has the drill press at $49. If not, 20% off coupons are pretty readily available (HF ads in car mags, etc.)

 

[CivilWarTalk]

All these tips are really awesome, I greatly appreciate it. I realize that I have some work to do, but really excited to make some of these improvements. Luckily a harbor freight is right down the road so a bench drill press is in my immediate future Im not going anywhere so I'll keep everyone posted. Many thanks!

Okay, just to be clear, those comments from DD4H are dated, and yes, you can get a very good drill with a press and a Block or Silver Bullet....

But the Silver Bullet Pro gets you a perfect drill every time without all the fuss of setting up a drill press.

If you can afford the best tool now, you'll save money in the long run!

 

[Crash Enburn]

But, what's the consensus on using the SBPro with standard .089 axles? Good enough?

 

[CH3NO2]

I have the original Silver Bullet and the Pro.
I now use the Pro with the BSA nails, I just mic all the nails and find three of the thicker ones to use.
The Pro makes drilling 100 percent easier for me and the kids.
It allows me to include the boys in another step of the build and I can be almost hands off which is nice.
But I am far from being as wise as the Pros on this forum.

 

[CivilWarTalk]

I'm using the Revell Axles this year on two cars, and using the #43 drill bit with the SBP they are just snug.

You can go with the Block and Drill Press route if you really want to, it will still give you an advantage over most other scout cars, but you'll still end up spending lots of valuable time setting up and drilling the axle holes. And they likely still won't match the quality and speed you'll get using the SBP.

I'd guess that my car build time has been cut by 40% using the SBP, and just like CH3NO2 says, my son can easily do the drill job himself, so that's awesome!

 

[CH3NO2]

It is a definitely the best tool I have purchased thus far.
http://www.derbydad4hire.com/The-Silver-Bullet-PRO-T-SBPRO.htm
And now it is $50. cheaper than when I purchased it.

The only thing I did additional was to put a piece of tape over one of the 0 degree holes.
To keep the kiddos and myself from drilling both front axle holes at once.
But that is not necessary if you are wanting a 4 wheel touching car.

We will be going thru a lot less wood now trying to get that perfect drill.

 

[Crash Enburn]

The accidental period in your sentence threw me off. "It's only $50 now?!!"