new Member questions

Michael D. Kasten

Bent Axle
Apr 22, 2018
11
1
3
72
Hello Derby Community!!! I would like to say that the Pinewood Derby has gone through some changes since I was in scouting. My first pinewood derby race was in 1957 when I was 5 years old. I have since built cars for my 3 boys through Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts. My dad must have taught me well because my boys won every race they entered, except the ones where we built 'cars' to specifically compete for best of show! My most challenging 'car' was a 'Superman' Complete with Kryptonite and him carrying an American Flag with "Truth, Justice and the American Way" attached to the flag. The 'car' wasn't very fast but it sure had a lot of Scout Spirit. I have a few questions for all you experts....One of my first questions is about all these 'CLASSES' of cars. Why so many different Classes of Cars??? Why have things become so complicated??? Second I notice that the rules for the 'National Pinewood Derby Championships' None of the rules specifically state 'DRY LUBRICANT' does that mean that The BSA now allows oil to be used on wheels and axles? I also remember that one of the rules I had to live by was 4 wheels all touching evenly...do this or be disqualified, is what I remember!!! I guess most of my questions are about the rules, and classes of race cars. What does the Boy Scout Council think about all these new 'rules' and 'classes'??? Could someone please explain?
 
The BSA rules vary from pack to pack but most still rely on graphite. It's messy and gets everywhere. I prefer oil as the process is cleaner, faster and more durable. There are BSA packs and Councils that allow oil.

All the different classes you see for Nationals are league based. League racing is for us boys who never grew up. There are different classes for the Mid America race as well but the separation of graphite and oil is the difference. You can run whichever class fits your build style. The National Pinewood Derby Championships are not associated with the BSA.

The four wheels touching rule has to be one of the worst rules in scout racing. Give 100 kids ages 7-10 a block of wood and four axles and I doubt very many will make a 4 wheel touching car. The best BSA rules that I have seen are in the Northern Star Council. (just my opinion)
 
  • Like
Reactions: LightninBoy
Superman.jpg
Superman1 (2).jpg
Thanks very Much, it does explain a lot. Thought I'd show the Derby Car that my son and I are the most proud of. Getting this car completed took a lot of dermal work and a lot of after school hours. A school friend of my sons told us that her father was a graphic artist and was willing to create a life like paint job on him, he also built and painted the display box that the 'car' sits in. He became an absolute magnificent friend thanks to SCOUTING.
 
I don't want to expose any exceptional secrets here, but, the use of HBN could change your world. So, if you know what HBN is then you might be able to give me some test results compared to Jig-A-Loo, oil, silicon, moly and graphite. Does anyone know if there is a racer who has tried HBN???

I'm really looking forward to watching the race on-line, I have never been able to do so before. I didn't even know that there were any organized races outside of the annual Pact and Troop races. I found out by searching 'Pinewood Derby' on u-tube last week. Watching these fantastic races has re-ignited my desire to build a derby car for our young people who have just started their Scouting Adventure. What has become of our society these days makes the need for Scouting and programs like it even more important.

I would like to comment about those who argue about the rules. Before you argue, think about what message you sending to your sons and daughters if you disagree about the rules. If there is a problem with your car, what ever it is, make sure you send a positive message about how you handle the conflict. Discussion is positive, mutual respect is much more important, BE RESPECTFUL!
 
I'd be interested in learning more about HBN. Do you have industry experience with it?
 
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2014/09/hexagonal-boron-nitride-hbn-how-well-does-it-work/

Hexagonal Boron Nitride (HBN) — How Well Does It Work?

For years, many shooters have coated bullets with Moly (molybdenum disulfide) or Danzac (tungsten disulfide or “WS2″). The idea was to reduce friction between bullets and barrel. In theory, this could lengthen barrel life and extend the number of rounds a shooter can fire between cleanings.



hbnsidex550.png



Moly and WS2 both have their fans, but in the last couple of years, some guys have switched to Hexagonal Boron Nitride (HBN), another dry lubricant. The advantage of HBN is that it won’t combine with moisture to create harmful acids. HBN is very slippery and it goes on clear, so it doesn’t leave a dirty mess on your hands or loading bench. Typically, HBN is applied via impact plating (tumbling), just as with Moly.

HBN Results — Both on Bullets and Barrel Bores
Many folks have asked, “Does Hexagonal Boron Nitride really work?” You’ll find answers to that and many other questions on gunsmith Stan Ware’s popular Bench-Talk.com Blog. There Paul Becigneul (aka Pbike) gives a detailed run-down on HBN use, comparing it to other friction-reducers. Paul also discusses the use of HBN in suspension to pre-coat the inside of barrels. Paul observes:

We coated our bullets … how we had been coating with WS2. Now our bullets have a slightly white sheen to them with kind of like a pearl coat. They are so slippery it takes a little practice to pick them up and not drop them on the trailer floor. What have we noticed down range? Nothing different from WS2 other than the black ring on your target around the bullet hole is now white or nonexistent. Our barrels clean just as clean as with WS2. Your hands aren’t black at the end of the day of shooting and that might be the most important part.

Interestingly, Becigneul decided to try a solution of HBN in alcohol, to pre-coat the inside of barrels. Paul had previously used a compound called Penephite to coat the inside of his barrels after cleaning. Paul explains:

If Penephite was used because it was slippery wouldn’t HBN be better? … We called Momentive again (our source for HBN), and talked about mixing HBN and 90% alcohol for a suspension agent to pre-lube our barrels. He though it sounded great but that the Kb>AC6111 Grade HBN would be better for this use. It would stand up in the alcohol suspension and cling to the barrel when passed through on a patch. We got some and mixed it in alcohol 90%. We use about one teaspoon in 16 ounces of alcohol.

We started using it this fall and what we have noticed is that now that first shot fired out of a clean and pre-lubed barrel can be trusted as the true impact point. We use tuners so now I got to the line, fire two shots judge my group for vertical, adjust the tuner as needed or not, and after tune has been achieved go to my record targets. This use has saved us in time at the bench and bullets in the backstop.

You really should read the whole article by Becigneul. He discusses the use of barrel lubes such as Penephite and “Lock-Ease” in some detail. Paul also provides links to HBN vendors and to the Material Safety Data Sheets (MSDS) for the various compounds he tested.

Good Source for Hexagonal Boron Nitride (HBN)
Paul Becigneul (aka PBike in our Forum) has been using HBN for many years with good results. He obtains his HBN from Momentive Performance Materials:

AI don't know if it will work on wheels and axels but its main purpose it to lubricate high temperature metal surfaces that require very tight tollerances in extreme duty machinery without experiencing frequent breakdowns, and has served that purpose very well...
 
I'd be interested in learning more about HBN. Do you have industry experience with it?

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2014/09/hexagonal-boron-nitride-hbn-how-well-does-it-work/

Hexagonal Boron Nitride (HBN) — How Well Does It Work?
For years, many shooters have coated bullets with Moly (molybdenum disulfide) or Danzac (tungsten disulfide or “WS2″). The idea was to reduce friction between bullets and barrel. In theory, this could lengthen barrel life and extend the number of rounds a shooter can fire between cleanings.



hbnsidex550.png



Moly and WS2 both have their fans, but in the last couple of years, some guys have switched to Hexagonal Boron Nitride (HBN), another dry lubricant. The advantage of HBN is that it won’t combine with moisture to create harmful acids. HBN is very slippery and it goes on clear, so it doesn’t leave a dirty mess on your hands or loading bench. Typically, HBN is applied via impact plating (tumbling), just as with Moly.

HBN Results — Both on Bullets and Barrel Bores
Many folks have asked, “Does Hexagonal Boron Nitride really work?” You’ll find answers to that and many other questions on gunsmith Stan Ware’s popular Bench-Talk.com Blog. There Paul Becigneul (aka Pbike) gives a detailed run-down on HBN use, comparing it to other friction-reducers. Paul also discusses the use of HBN in suspension to pre-coat the inside of barrels. Paul observes:

We coated our bullets … how we had been coating with WS2. Now our bullets have a slightly white sheen to them with kind of like a pearl coat. They are so slippery it takes a little practice to pick them up and not drop them on the trailer floor. What have we noticed down range? Nothing different from WS2 other than the black ring on your target around the bullet hole is now white or nonexistent. Our barrels clean just as clean as with WS2. Your hands aren’t black at the end of the day of shooting and that might be the most important part.

Interestingly, Becigneul decided to try a solution of HBN in alcohol, to pre-coat the inside of barrels. Paul had previously used a compound called Penephite to coat the inside of his barrels after cleaning. Paul explains:

If Penephite was used because it was slippery wouldn’t HBN be better? … We called Momentive again (our source for HBN), and talked about mixing HBN and 90% alcohol for a suspension agent to pre-lube our barrels. He though it sounded great but that the Kb>AC6111 Grade HBN would be better for this use. It would stand up in the alcohol suspension and cling to the barrel when passed through on a patch. We got some and mixed it in alcohol 90%. We use about one teaspoon in 16 ounces of alcohol.

We started using it this fall and what we have noticed is that now that first shot fired out of a clean and pre-lubed barrel can be trusted as the true impact point. We use tuners so now I got to the line, fire two shots judge my group for vertical, adjust the tuner as needed or not, and after tune has been achieved go to my record targets. This use has saved us in time at the bench and bullets in the backstop.

You really should read the whole article by Becigneul. He discusses the use of barrel lubes such as Penephite and “Lock-Ease” in some detail. Paul also provides links to HBN vendors and to the Material Safety Data Sheets (MSDS) for the various compounds he tested.

Good Source for Hexagonal Boron Nitride (HBN)
Paul Becigneul (aka PBike in our Forum) has been using HBN for many years with good results. He obtains his HBN from Momentive Performance Materials:

AI don't know if it will work on wheels and axels but its main purpose it to lubricate high temperature metal surfaces that require very tight tollerances in extreme duty machinery without experiencing frequent breakdowns, and has served that purpose very well...

Sorry I didn't post this to you directly (I did it wrong) No I don't have any experience with it as far as derby cars...
Just long range shooting
 
Yes it is the same.

Initial investigations seem to imply that it's not so great in powdered form.

Also, it's been suggested to me that it primarily excels in high temperature applications (e.g. a gun barrel). Not sure how this applies to PWD stuffs.
 
I'm assuming that the Mid America Race will be LIVE on u-tube but will it be live on Facebook as well???? I'm really looking forward to watching this race. Looking at Facebook this is one of the most extensive events of the year, it ranks up there with the Super Bowl and the World Series. Just hope nobody kneels during the opening ceremonies. My hat is off to all of you for doing this you deserve a medal, no, you deserve more than that for sure.
 
I'm assuming that the Mid America Race will be LIVE on u-tube but will it be live on Facebook as well???? I'm really looking forward to watching this race. Looking at Facebook this is one of the most extensive events of the year, it ranks up there with the Super Bowl and the World Series. Just hope nobody kneels during the opening ceremonies. My hat is off to all of you for doing this you deserve a medal, no, you deserve more than that for sure.

Usually it is done via Livestream.com.