Well i offered to take over our packs derby this next year and basically said i would do it for 9 years until my youngest is out of cub scouts. I did however have a request, the mid America rules would need to be adopted. Our pack is under the mid America council so in my opinion this only makes since. There needs to be enforceable rules in place the out of the box rules you cant enforce without pulling axles and such. There rules up to date say light sanding on wheels...lol that leaves way too much interpretation. Well as expected there was some resistance to this request. They say "we want it fair" "lets keep it cheap" etc.. as reasoning's. They decided to meet again to discuss the rules in depth at a later date.
pack derby rules change
- Thread starter derbychip
- Start date
Tell them...
It's important that your pack allows the same parts and building techniques that are allowed at the district and council levels. It wouldn't be right to purposely disadvantage your scouts by having overly stringent rules all in the name of fairness and keeping things cheap.
On a side note: It's time for Mid America to drop their graphite only rule for qualified scouts. You should petition them for a change.
It's important that your pack allows the same parts and building techniques that are allowed at the district and council levels. It wouldn't be right to purposely disadvantage your scouts by having overly stringent rules all in the name of fairness and keeping things cheap.
On a side note: It's time for Mid America to drop their graphite only rule for qualified scouts. You should petition them for a change.
congratulations (I think? LOL) and good luck!
If your in the mid America catchment and the process is such that the cars that win your pack race go to mid America, then adopting their rules is a great place to start....
For those of us that have run Mid America, we have all seen how fast some of the cars get and we all know that the fast ones are using modified parts whether its wheels or axels and I believe the rules are written to allow those.....the last I checked...in general, any wheelbase....BSA wheels with full markings and flutting, but the only restriction is a 7.5 mm tread width minimum....nail-TYPE axels LIKE those found in the kits (basically any aftermarket nail axel passes as long as the diameter is not less than .084)....fenders are good, 3 wheel rail running, delrin or other friction reduction inserts/washers are good....graphite or other dry lube....
As such those graphite cars going down the track are fast!
This does open the door so to say to have cars with a whole range of parts and possibilities from straight out of the box to full aftermarket parts....and we know that the later often wins however costs much more.
In the end, if your pack winners are going to want a chance at winning at Mid America then following their rule and maximizing your chances by using even aftermarket parts that follow the rules would give them the best chance but I understand that some wont want to spend the time on these or the cost so....
You could make the rules stricter than mid America etc....but I think any rule that reduces options, reduces the chance of doing well there.
If your pack is primarily interested in just your own race and not mid America perse (kinda like mine where districts is really just a perk for the cubs as they rather just brag in their own troop haha) then you can try to accommodate as many as possible....but if people are going to want to do well at MA then id say you follow their rules as close as you can...
this will be fun and tough at the same time...
The only reason I wrote so much is I am in the same boat for this coming year....and am in charge of our race in 2015....needless to say I was also asked by our pack leader and a few parents to organize it a bit more so that we can try to be competitive at our districts (prior to this as I said it wasn't that important)....well after seeing and racing districts this year, the top 5 cars were all aftermarket parts and pushing the limits of the stated rules.....and the inspection process is so minimal that no one is even looking for anything....and certainly its just cursory in that no one is pulling wheels and checking axels....would not surprise me if someone used oil.....when the top 3 cars are all two car lengths in front of the rest of the racers consistently, then I think that's a sign.
As such im working on a way to try and get our kids more competative but still remain within the intent of the rules stated....we all know there is always some subjective interpretation....
Let us know how things go as time goes by!
If your in the mid America catchment and the process is such that the cars that win your pack race go to mid America, then adopting their rules is a great place to start....
For those of us that have run Mid America, we have all seen how fast some of the cars get and we all know that the fast ones are using modified parts whether its wheels or axels and I believe the rules are written to allow those.....the last I checked...in general, any wheelbase....BSA wheels with full markings and flutting, but the only restriction is a 7.5 mm tread width minimum....nail-TYPE axels LIKE those found in the kits (basically any aftermarket nail axel passes as long as the diameter is not less than .084)....fenders are good, 3 wheel rail running, delrin or other friction reduction inserts/washers are good....graphite or other dry lube....
As such those graphite cars going down the track are fast!
This does open the door so to say to have cars with a whole range of parts and possibilities from straight out of the box to full aftermarket parts....and we know that the later often wins however costs much more.
In the end, if your pack winners are going to want a chance at winning at Mid America then following their rule and maximizing your chances by using even aftermarket parts that follow the rules would give them the best chance but I understand that some wont want to spend the time on these or the cost so....
You could make the rules stricter than mid America etc....but I think any rule that reduces options, reduces the chance of doing well there.
If your pack is primarily interested in just your own race and not mid America perse (kinda like mine where districts is really just a perk for the cubs as they rather just brag in their own troop haha) then you can try to accommodate as many as possible....but if people are going to want to do well at MA then id say you follow their rules as close as you can...
this will be fun and tough at the same time...
The only reason I wrote so much is I am in the same boat for this coming year....and am in charge of our race in 2015....needless to say I was also asked by our pack leader and a few parents to organize it a bit more so that we can try to be competitive at our districts (prior to this as I said it wasn't that important)....well after seeing and racing districts this year, the top 5 cars were all aftermarket parts and pushing the limits of the stated rules.....and the inspection process is so minimal that no one is even looking for anything....and certainly its just cursory in that no one is pulling wheels and checking axels....would not surprise me if someone used oil.....when the top 3 cars are all two car lengths in front of the rest of the racers consistently, then I think that's a sign.
As such im working on a way to try and get our kids more competative but still remain within the intent of the rules stated....we all know there is always some subjective interpretation....
Let us know how things go as time goes by!
derbychip said:
I hear you, I'm in the same boat literally as we share the same district. Our rules were very vague, so it could be easy to follow MA rules but the issue with our pack is no one goes to districts anymore because they got there butts handed to them., so competition is not very challenging.
561 racing said:
I mean no disrespect to anyone in the MA Council, but I have always thought their PWD rules to be a bit of an odd duck.
On one hand, they continue living in the dark ages with their graphite only requirement, which is so filthy to work with. On the other hand, they go way too advanced with their wheel rules... If a scout wants to be competitive, their parents have to fork over $50 for a set of pro class wheels that have to be run reversed with spacers. This puts the cars in a Street Pro (or Stock) type class, which many league racers find difficult.
Perhaps, a scout class that is closer to Pure Stock would make it less expensive and give parents a better feeling that their kid has a chance to win.
Don't think it's necessary to ban reversed wheels. Here is a snippet of our council rules...
PROHIBITED Items:
F. Bearings, bushings, washers, sleeves, hubcaps or inserts attached to or in contact with the axle, body or wheels.
WHEELS:
A. Use only Official Scout Grand Prix wheels.
All lettering/numbering, both inside and outside, must remain complete and be visible. The fluting and other BSA markings on the outside wheel area must remain visible. Outer wheel surface may be sanded, shaved, or polished to remove surface imperfections, mold casting burrs, and correct off center wheel bores. Outer wheel surface must not be reshaped in any way in an attempt to minimize tread contact or alter aerodynamics. Tread surface must be flat and parallel to the wheel bore. Coning the hubs and truing the inside tread edge is allowed. Tread width may not be less than 7.5 mm. You may add material such as glue, fingernail polish, or tape, to the inside of the wheel to aid in balancing of the wheel, but no material may be removed from the inside surfaces. Minimum diameter of wheel is 1.16” to maintain the ridges on the outer edge.
B. Wheel Bore treatment is allowed including polishing and/or tapping. Wheel bores may not be filled and re-drilled to alter bore diameter or to achieve better fit with the axle.
The following wheel modifications are PROHIBITED:
A. Rounding of tread surface/wheel edges
B. Grooving, H-cutting or V-cutting
C. Altering of wheel profile
D. Narrowing the tread surface, other than truing inside tread edge
E. Drilling sidewalls
F. Hollowing, sanding, or otherwise removing or modifying material from inside the wheel
G. Filling of any wheel surface with any type of material
There must be at least four wheels on the car, however, it is not required that all four wheels make contact with the track surface. Each wheel must be mounted on an axle, on the outside of the car, in the vertical position. Each wheel must be attached directly to the wood car body by an axle and spin freely. No part of the wheel may overlap the center guide rail by more than 1/8 inch. The two rear wheels and the two front wheels must be positioned directly across the body from each another. Staggered wheelbases are not allowed.
Please note: There are aftermarket modified wheels that are LIGHTENED. This is usually done by turning the wheels on a lathe and removing material from the inside of the wheel. These wheels are NOT allowed and EASILY RECOGNIZED at inspection. Cars with these wheels will not be permitted to race.
No part of the car or any attachment to the car may be capable of coming into contact with the track other than the wheels.
AXLES:
BSA Nail type axles are required with an overall diameter of no less than .084 inches for each wheel. Some polishing and/or modification is allowed as long as overall diameter is not reduced below .084 requirement.
Grooves are allowed; the depth of the groove(s) is not limited so long as the journal portion of the axle (the part the wheel rides on) is no less than the stated minimum diameter.
Axles must not be connected to any device that mechanically alters rotation or spin.
Axles must be mounted into the wood sections of car. Drilled holes or slots can be used.
Approved lubricants include (but are not limited to) graphite, Teflon, Nyoil, and Krytox.
Over-application of lubricant which results in excessive shedding onto the track is not allowed.
PROHIBITED Items:
F. Bearings, bushings, washers, sleeves, hubcaps or inserts attached to or in contact with the axle, body or wheels.
WHEELS:
A. Use only Official Scout Grand Prix wheels.
All lettering/numbering, both inside and outside, must remain complete and be visible. The fluting and other BSA markings on the outside wheel area must remain visible. Outer wheel surface may be sanded, shaved, or polished to remove surface imperfections, mold casting burrs, and correct off center wheel bores. Outer wheel surface must not be reshaped in any way in an attempt to minimize tread contact or alter aerodynamics. Tread surface must be flat and parallel to the wheel bore. Coning the hubs and truing the inside tread edge is allowed. Tread width may not be less than 7.5 mm. You may add material such as glue, fingernail polish, or tape, to the inside of the wheel to aid in balancing of the wheel, but no material may be removed from the inside surfaces. Minimum diameter of wheel is 1.16” to maintain the ridges on the outer edge.
B. Wheel Bore treatment is allowed including polishing and/or tapping. Wheel bores may not be filled and re-drilled to alter bore diameter or to achieve better fit with the axle.
The following wheel modifications are PROHIBITED:
A. Rounding of tread surface/wheel edges
B. Grooving, H-cutting or V-cutting
C. Altering of wheel profile
D. Narrowing the tread surface, other than truing inside tread edge
E. Drilling sidewalls
F. Hollowing, sanding, or otherwise removing or modifying material from inside the wheel
G. Filling of any wheel surface with any type of material
There must be at least four wheels on the car, however, it is not required that all four wheels make contact with the track surface. Each wheel must be mounted on an axle, on the outside of the car, in the vertical position. Each wheel must be attached directly to the wood car body by an axle and spin freely. No part of the wheel may overlap the center guide rail by more than 1/8 inch. The two rear wheels and the two front wheels must be positioned directly across the body from each another. Staggered wheelbases are not allowed.
Please note: There are aftermarket modified wheels that are LIGHTENED. This is usually done by turning the wheels on a lathe and removing material from the inside of the wheel. These wheels are NOT allowed and EASILY RECOGNIZED at inspection. Cars with these wheels will not be permitted to race.
No part of the car or any attachment to the car may be capable of coming into contact with the track other than the wheels.
AXLES:
BSA Nail type axles are required with an overall diameter of no less than .084 inches for each wheel. Some polishing and/or modification is allowed as long as overall diameter is not reduced below .084 requirement.
Grooves are allowed; the depth of the groove(s) is not limited so long as the journal portion of the axle (the part the wheel rides on) is no less than the stated minimum diameter.
Axles must not be connected to any device that mechanically alters rotation or spin.
Axles must be mounted into the wood sections of car. Drilled holes or slots can be used.
Approved lubricants include (but are not limited to) graphite, Teflon, Nyoil, and Krytox.
Over-application of lubricant which results in excessive shedding onto the track is not allowed.
So the North Star council allows lathed wheels with no inside wheel material removed and is open to oil. Do they check it with calipers or they weigh them? Our Gamehaven council is just south of you but only one district that I can tell has a district level race. Our rules are pretty much the same but the only inspection was car weight and dimensions. I can't remember if they stated graphite only or just dry lube only. Not sure how well oil would do with how dirty the track was with graphite. I think the district winner did run oil though since it's time never dropped off.
ngyoung said:
When I helped at the district check in (using these Northern Star Council rules), I brought a caliper. Most wheels I could pass at a glance. I can recognize DD4H and Evolution wheels which I know will pass. Its also easy to spot wheels that are lightened any significant amount if you know what you are looking for. But we don't weigh the wheels - in fact one of the backing principles of these rules is "no tear downs".
However, enforcing the "no inside material removed" rule is the weak link to this otherwise awesome set of rules. I fully agree with the rule, just that enforcing it takes a level of experience that isn't present at every pack and district race. I wouldn't be surprised if several cheaters (or Cheetahs) have raced under these rules, undetected.
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