Too much oil?

[DuckOfAllTrades]

Hi everyone, again...

We had our tech day this past Saturday and I was able to test a number of cars I've built. One car stood out to me as having off results. It didn't occur to me til today.

Two of my cars I used DD4H bodies. One a 3 wheel rail rider, the other 4 wheel canted. Surprisingly, the 4 wheel was faster!

The 4 wheel car had lightly machined wheels and runs graphite.

The 3 wheel had ultra light wheels and runs oil.

In theory, the 3 wheel should be faster, right?

My question is this. Could over application of oil slow the car this significantly? This was my first attempt at Krytox and I was careful to not get TOO much, but may have. Everything else was prepped carefully and thoughtful with the same amount of detail for both. I sprayed pledge on the 4 wheel axles, chain saver on the 3 wheel axles.

We have a 49 foot bestrack. My 3 wheel ran 3.6921, the 4 wheel 3.6803. For reference, the gentleman running the cars said anything below a 3.8 is considered fast. So it wasn't slow, but I expected it to have a much better time than the 4 wheel car.

 

[Thinkin'Bout Racin]

If I read this correctly, you prepped things backwards. The pledge should be used with graphite and the chain saver with oil.

And yes, too much oil will slow a car down. How much is too much ....it depends on which oil and your prep.

For the record, I am not a Pro, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express sometime during the last six months.

 

[Pinewood Outlaw]

I agree...you prep was backwards. I have to put reader glasses on when I apply regular krtox....usually 2 small drops st most with regular krytox

 

[DuckOfAllTrades]

If I read this correctly, you prepped things backwards. The pledge should be used with graphite and the chain saver with oil.

And yes, too much oil will slow a car down. How much is too much ....it depends on which oil and your prep.

For the record, I am not a Pro, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express sometime during the last six months.

My application want backwards, my typing was! Chain saver on oil, Pledge on graphite!

 

[Jimmy & his 2 Kids]

I want to hear what the guys say but right off the bat I see pledge on the oil car and chain saver on the graphite... is that a typo? That’s backwards. Unless my brain is fried from a long day of work that’s not over yet.
But I seriously think if you actually did that there is one thing that may explain it.
I will shoot you a reply tothat pm after work too. Just haven’t had time. Right now just taking a quick sec to poke around and saw this.
Jimmy

DOH!!! I was typing then got stuck with a customer and didn’t hit post. I see this was already addressed.

 

[DuckOfAllTrades]

I want to hear what the guys say but right off the bat I see pledge on the oil car and chain saver on the graphite... is that a typo? That’s backwards. Unless my brain is fried from a long day of work that’s not over yet.
But I seriously think if you actually did that there is one thing that may explain it.
I will shoot you a reply tothat pm after work too. Just haven’t had time. Right now just taking a quick sec to poke around and saw this.
Jimmy

DOH!!! I was typing then got stuck with a customer and didn’t hit post. I see this was already addressed.

Haha, messing with me! I read this and thought what? I already fixed that!

 

[B_Regal Racing]

On a 42' track, I would expect an oil car to be somewhere in the neighborhood of .025 faster than a similarly equipped graphite card; but, there just are a ton of variables. While its hard enough just to make two identical cars and have them run the same speed, you only add more complexity to the comparison when the lubrication is different. That being said, each oil is applied differently. For example, D1 (D1 is no longer made as the ingredients are no longer available) can be applied generously without any speed drop off (although some of the excess oil may need to shed first), while the original DD4H oil needs to be applied sparingly; furthermore, D1 would only last a week before a drop off may be seen, while the original DD4H oil may run for months and months. Something else to think about: oil is more susceptible to being slow as a result of foreign contaminants from my own experience. Additionally, oil requires better prepped wheels / axles than does graphite (again, from my own experience). If you wanted to determine why the oil car was slow, you might think about these things:

1. How much chain saver was applied? Too much can slow a car. I know jig-a-loo is a better spray.
2. What type of oil and how much was applied. The DD4H oil will be faster than just straight Krytox sold at a scout store.
3. What condition were the wheels? Were they clean? Did they have runout? Disassemble and look for contaminants.
4. What axles did you use? Scout axles are not straight and have to be tuned.
5. Were the cars weighted the same? With a long track, it might be preferable to have additional weight forward (1 or 2g)

I'm sure there are more things to consider; just have to give it some thought. And by the way, graphite is plain nasty to work with. Stick with oil. Just sayin'

 

[DuckOfAllTrades]

On a 42' track, I would expect an oil car to be somewhere in the neighborhood of .025 faster than a similarly equipped graphite card; but, there just are a ton of variables. While its hard enough just to make two identical cars and have them run the same speed, you only add more complexity to the comparison when the lubrication is different. That being said, each oil is applied differently. For example, D1 (D1 is no longer made as the ingredients are no longer available) can be applied generously without any speed drop off (although some of the excess oil may need to shed first), while the original DD4H oil needs to be applied sparingly; furthermore, D1 would only last a week before a drop off may be seen, while the original DD4H oil may run for months and months. Something else to think about: oil is more susceptible to being slow as a result of foreign contaminants from my own experience. Additionally, oil requires better prepped wheels / axles than does graphite (again, from my own experience). If you wanted to determine why the oil car was slow, you might think about these things:

1. How much chain saver was applied? Too much can slow a car. I know jig-a-loo is a better spray.
2. What type of oil and how much was applied. The DD4H oil will be faster than just straight Krytox sold at a scout store.
3. What condition were the wheels? Were they clean? Did they have runout? Disassemble and look for contaminants.
4. What axles did you use? Scout axles are not straight and have to be tuned.
5. Were the cars weighted the same? With a long track, it might be preferable to have additional weight forward (1 or 2g)

I'm sure there are more things to consider; just have to give it some thought. And by the way, graphite is plain nasty to work with. Stick with oil. Just sayin'

Thank you for the complete response, just what I was looking for! I’ve built a lot of cars since I made this mine so I think starting from scratch with prep would be a good experiment to see if I can improve it.

 

[SuperSlow]

Our club uses a 49 ft track, you should be DESTROYING those times with a 3 wheeled oil car.

 

[DuckOfAllTrades]

Our club uses a 49 ft track, you should be DESTROYING those times with a 3 wheeled oil car.

View attachment 1222

Wow! Our track must be slow or yours is fast! My bassico car only had 3.5886. 3.8 is considered fast, and 3.7s won the scout race last year.

 

[Jimmy & his 2 Kids]

One thing is true... not all tracks, same type, length yada yada... they wont all show the same times. Too many variables. Even down to the angle on the hill which is adjustable. Cars that run one time over at APR will run a different time at NPWDRL and they are both 42’ Best Tracks.
Not all set ups are created equal. Just race to win on the track you are racing on.

 

[Chief]

If I read this correctly, you prepped things backwards. The pledge should be used with graphite and the chain saver with oil.

And yes, too much oil will slow a car down. How much is too much ....it depends on which oil and your prep.

For the record, I am not a Pro, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express sometime during the last six months.

However, at the hotel, unless you sleep on the floor under a table...it doesnt count. HAHAHA

 

[DuckOfAllTrades]

I found this thread talking about 49 foot besttrack races.

http://derbytalk.com/viewtopic.php?t=7605

8 run average, most cars were in the 3.8. Occasionally some were in the 3.7 range.

My daughter's car was 3.6803, my sons was 3.7053. Both seem like really good times from what I've read! My daughters seems really fast.

And my car at 3.5886 is really really fast. Can't wait to see what we find out at the races, to see where others are running. I'm nervous until that first heat when I see about where everyone will average. Only then will I know if we are fast or slow for that day.

 

[SuperSlow]

Unfortanately it took me 3 years to get that time. Im not a professional but I try to push beyond "most stock cars"

 

[SuperSlow]

We need support if there are any central PA folks. Come race, eat, have fun n see who is fastest.

 

[Pinewood Outlaw]

Took me and my son 5 years to win district grand champ setting the scout record on our 42 foot best track 3.0246 spent first 4 years listening to out dated car prep techniques floating around our district....finally found all you guys and the results speak for themselves.