Ok . A little more background...We are talking scout level. My Grandson's car was beaten by 2 car lengths at the council race. I sent the car to John's last race to get a real time on the car. Average time was 3.08. With that info, I was wanting to see how much we needed to improve to compete next year. There was one pack that had some bad news cars. My grandson's car had not really been challenged at his pack race or the district race. All the cars from this pack, which was the same pack that provided the race track and the personnel to put on the race, would out run our car pretty bad. His car was a back yard built, using the slots and full weight wheels, thin wedge shape, 5.0 weight, canted wheels, rail rider.