Advice on Pack Rules for Pinewood Derby

[AAARacing]

Hey All!

My first time post here - but I have been lurking for a while.

Let me give a little background. I am on my packs committee, and we are 1 month out from our first pinewood derby planning meeting.

Last year we had pretty basic rules, and our pack did not advance anyone to districts as we were just switching councils at the time.

This year - I feel as if we should send our top 4 (as per district rules) to the district race.....

Here is my issue -- The district rules are REALLY strict. For instance

- Have to use axle slots provided, no drilling, re-slotting, modified or changed in any way
- axles, wheels & body wood shall only be provided in the official BSA Grand Pinewood derby kit. (wheels must not be cut drilled beveled or rounded. The axles from the kit must be used, they may be polished or lubricated, but not machined narrowed.)
- Axles must not be altered in any way except polishing. They may be glued in place as long as a portion of the axle is visible to the judges
- all 4 axles must touch the track, this is tested by free rolling. This is implied that the full wheel must make contact. Therefore axles must be in straight and full wheels must touch the surface.
- Bushings springs, bearings prohibited etc.
- Only graphite or powdered teflon white lube allowed for lubrication.

So My question to the experts:

Should I suggest district rules for our pack race?

My feeling is i should suggest district rules for our pack race so the cars that advance don't have to be re-done or modified at all. Does anyone have any experience or suggestions here?

All feedback appreciated!

 

[B_Regal Racing]

My feeling is i should suggest district rules for our pack race so the cars that advance don't have to be re-done or modified at all.

Welcome -

If you have any influence at all, I would have your district adopt your council rules and have your pack adopt your district rules, even if the rules are not like by all. This allows the same car to be on an even keel with all of the other entrants should it advance.

You could always have each cub in your pack box up a car and send it in to the next NPWDRL race as a preliminary test. It would be a whoot watching it on the internet as there is a live streaming video of the race.

 

[AAARacing]

From what I know - there is NOT a council race. We just go to districts and that is it.

I think I am going to push that we adopt district rules. I think it is best practice and should make things interesting although I know things like alignment will be very hard with this set of rules...

On another point - once we get set, you better believe I will be coming on here to ask for some tips and tricks as my son and I build our car together /images/boards/smilies/smile.gif

 

[Crash Enburn]

all 4 axles must touch the track, this is tested by free rolling. This is implied that the full wheel must make contact. Therefore axles must be in straight and full wheels must touch the surface.

What is the actual text of this rule? If the axles have to touch, you're going to have some very slow cars. /images/boards/smilies/wink.gif Having all four wheels touch does not mean that all four have to be running flat.

But, like B Regal said, adopt the District rules.

I assume that the "Axles must not be altered in any way except polishing" allows for filing off the crimp marks first. And perhaps some slight ("incidental") coning of the head from filing off the crimp marks there.

 

[AAARacing]

Sorry - see what happens when I try and type while on a work conference call....

I wish i could copy and past the rules, but it is in a PDF.

The text is - All 4 wheels must make contact with the track surface. (This is tested by free rolling the car). And this is implied that the full wheel must make contact. Therefore the axles must be straight and the full wheel must be making contact with the surface.

 

[Rocket car]

If scouts build the cars 90% of them will not have all the wheels flat on the ground. Stupid rule.

I can see a lot of pressing on the top of the cars and a lot of P.O. dads.

P.s we always adopt the district rules even though they maybe dumb.

 

[Crash Enburn]

This is literally the text??

All 4 wheels must make contact with the track surface. (This is tested by free rolling the car).  And this is implied that the full wheel must make contact.  Therefore the axles must be straight and the full wheel must be making contact with the surface.

"Implied" is in the rule? Well, I "inferred" that as long as all four are touching, it's good.

 

[LightninBoy]

This is literally the text??

 All 4 wheels must make contact with the track surface. (This is tested by free rolling the car). And this is implied that the full wheel must make contact. Therefore the axles must be straight and the full wheel must be making contact with the surface.

"Implied" is in the rule? Well, I "inferred" that as long as all four are touching, it's good.

Wow. Just wow. That rule is bad on so may levels I don't even know where to begin.

 

[~JBD RACING~]

Some people who make these rules don't have a clue or understand this hobby at all..

 

[AAARacing]

That is indeed the rule. Seems like someone knows all the speed tips and recommendations and wants to try and level the playing field as much as possible.

 

[Crash Enburn]

Wow. As you are looking to write up the rules for your Pack, and have the cars be legal at districts, use their rules, but change the wording of the wheel mounting portion to: "All four wheels must make flat contact with the track."

Build tips for your boys:

• Cut the long end of the block off 5/8" from the axle slot and then glue the cut off portion to the other end of the block. This will let you use the original slots, but have the rear wheels all the way to the back and have a full 7" long block.
• Drill the top of the slots with a #43 drill bit to help the axles to go in straight
• (This is more iffy) Give both front axles a very slight bend (like in the 1* range). Use that bend to provide steer to the cars to be rail runners. The slop in the bores is enough to overcome the angle and still run flat.

In my experience though, the District race doesn't do any better a job of checking the legality of cars — so you could just cut slots in the desired locations and there'd be no question. Likewise the "running flat" — just get the wheels really close to flat, for it does require a bit of skill and effort (and a square block) to get all four wheels mounted such that they all touch and run flat.

 

[AAARacing]

Crash - I understand what you are saying about cutting off the large side of the block and gluing to the other side to push the axle holes close to the back, but with that methodology, I am assuming then we won't weight behind the axle. Using the method you have laid out, would a 3.5 oz tungsten canopy just slightly in front of rear axle give me a COM where I am looking for it (5/8' - 3/4" ) in front of rear axle?

 

[Crash Enburn]

In either case, if you have the canopy all the way to the back, the CoM will be in the same place*. Only the position of the rear axles relative to the CoM will change. You want the CoM as far back on the car as you can without it doing wheelies -- so ideally you don't want the CoM < 3/4" from the rear axles. You want your weight as far back from the starting pin as is practicable.

The canopy is large enough that its mass will be both in front and behind the axles. Check the CoM before you drill/fasten the canopy. I'm sure you'll be fine.

*Since there is weight in the wheels and axles, moving them forward or backward will have some (negligible) effect on the CoM.

 

[Obsessedderbydad]

I have a feeling whoever wrote these rules had no clue what they are talking about. They probably don't know how hard it is to get a perfect slotted block with perfectly straight axles from China. If the rules are different from districts, all they are doing is setting the kids up for disappointment. The more rules you add the more difficult you make it for the kids and you're not really teaching them anything. The reason I like John's rules for scout races is because it allows the Scout to truely build the fastest car they can build. You almost always will have someone that cheats or some kids dad is a machinist/wood worker build his car. You can't stop that, so don't handcuff the kids by changing the rules thinking you'll make it fair for everyone.

 

[HMH Racing]

use the PUMA wheel weights and blow their minds /images/boards/smilies/smile.gif

 

[IAE Racing]

May be too late for this year, but try work your way into the District Council. Repair the rules from the top down .

 

[ngyoung]

Yeah that is pretty much what the scout office will tell you as well if you want to see a rules change. Even then you may get resistance from others at the district/council meetings. The current person in charge of the PWD program may try to dump the whole thing in your lap. It usually seems to be polar opposites, either very protective or tired of doing it and ready for someone else to take the reigns.

 

[B_Regal Racing]

Hell hath no fury like a scorned Derby Dad.

Abide by whatever the rules are, no matter how outlandish they appear to be. Don't become the Scout PWD Overlord.

 

[kcracer]

Been gone awhile but those rules are terrible on all levels

 

[AAARacing]

Thanks guys... We have our committee meeting in 2-3 weeks. I will come back with what we agree on and if anything is going to be re-written.

Thanks again for the advice