Breaking the rules, Bending the rules, or 100% Legal?

[bracketracer]

Your rules read "NO reductions in width or diameter", Nitros are both smaller and narrower. Your rules don't say "only light sanding" either. They say "Wheels may be sanded to remove the flashing only". I don't see a grey area there. I don't think John takes a gram and a half of flashing out of the inside. But maybe he does! /images/boards/smilies/smile.gif

Ok, so in your opinion are any of John's wheels within my rule set?

BASX, RAGE?

I want a true wheel. If I had the equipment to do it myself I would, but a decent lathe is not cheap.

AFAIK, all John's wheels are trued on their OD, none of them would meet the posted rule set. You are not allowed to true the wheels based on what is posted. The rule says no reduction in diameter. Any truing will violate that rule. Only thing I could suggest to meet your goal of having a true running wheel and fit those rules would be to select wheels that have low TIR without machining. Be prepared to buy about a dozen sets of BSA wheels to get three or four like that.

 

[IAE Racing]

Yes, I am a contrian. I will probably contradict my self several times just typing this reply. My views have also changed from time to time as I get more knowledge. Sorry up front for the lecture.

Hmm, interesting. You seem to have an opposite opinion of many people on this board. While others are angry that they cant run oil and or groved axles, you are saying we should try to restrict the ability to build fast cars in order to level the playing field?

I want scouts to be able to do there best. Sometimes change is slow. My biggest things about rules is to make them easily measurable. I'll race any rule set as long as everyone else is racing the same rules. As if often pointed out here, and we would both agree, there are those that aren't. I'm sure if we're talking pack level racing without bragging or boasting most of the veterans and memebers with more than one post have beat "cheaters" (sorry for using that term) with out cheating.

I am with you for wanting to run the best wheel allowed. For our pack race coming up we are running out of the box wheel "lightly sanded" cause that's what our sucky vague rules ask for. If someone sneeks in there with something else and beats us I would be upset BUT we will both be going to dristicts that's where our goal is this year. No, our lightly sanded wheels may not be perfectly true.

I am currently helping our girl scout leader with her rules. I said concerning axles: Have your rules state either "You may groov axles", or "you may not groove axles" just don't leave it wishy washy like it was. I steered her toward "you may groove axles" so you don't have to worry about if any one does. And yes, I will show them how to do it at our workshop. The girls just started last year and I hosted a workshop with nearly all the girls showing up. In an hour, families that had never raced before are miles ahead of cub scouts that had been doing it for years. Now there's some brothers coming into scouts. when those parents who have been taught better ways, there will be more voices to help straighten out the cubs.

Same way with the wheels. Either add a weight limit or a markings rule like Mid America that can be visually measured.
IV – Wheels

• Only Official BSA Wheels are allowed (either new style & old style) all markings must be intact on inside and outside of wheel. You may use the Official BSA Colored wheels
• Outer wheel surface may be sanded, shaved, lathed or polished to remove any imperfections, true roundness, remove mold castings and burrs, but must not be reshaped in any way to minimize tread contact or alter aerodynamics.
  • The fluting (small decorative dots on the edge) must remain visible around the entire circumference.
  • The tread / contact surface must remain flat and parallel to the bore.
  • The width of the tread must not be less than 7.5mm
  • No removing or reducing the letters or spokes or drilling additional holes.
• The following wheel modifications are NOT Allowed
  • No Rounding of the wheel treads – they must remain flat.
  • No Grooving, H-cutting, V-cutting, Crowing, Tapering or Dishing
  • No Altering the wheel profile
  • No Drilling sidewalls
  • No Filling of any wheel surface with any type of material
• Coning the hubs, truing the inside edge of the wheel, and removing the outer hub step down is allowed.
• Wheel Bore treatment is allowed including polishing, sanding and / or tapping.
  • Wheel bores may not be filled and re-drilled

BTW Nitros fit this rule. the reason I suggested 2.5gm wheels for a "stock" race is because that is a realistic "light sanding" weight and a trued BASX weight allowing for either wheel. For a lot a pack races, a $40 nitro is overkill. If you want to compete at a big race like Mid America, then its makes sense to me to invest more heavly. But by adding that weight, people like ourselves who are trying to follow the rules have something to shoot for and those who are not have a measurable disqualification. And yes, the problem with a 2 or 2.5 weight is it cannot be measured until after the race. and nobody likes (and I have only read about online) post race teardowns.

I Apologize for lecture

 

[IAE Racing]

BTW, Congrats on your win!

 

[IAE Racing]

To actually answer your question of which wheel I would use. BASX. The Rage if I thought there others.

 

[92hatchattack]

Your rules read "NO reductions in width or diameter", Nitros are both smaller and narrower. Your rules don't say "only light sanding" either. They say "Wheels may be sanded to remove the flashing only". I don't see a grey area there. I don't think John takes a gram and a half of flashing out of the inside. But maybe he does! /images/boards/smilies/smile.gif

Ok, so in your opinion are any of John's wheels within my rule set?

BASX, RAGE?

I want a true wheel. If I had the equipment to do it myself I would, but a decent lathe is not cheap.

AFAIK, all John's wheels are trued on their OD, none of them would meet the posted rule set. You are not allowed to true the wheels based on what is posted. The rule says no reduction in diameter. Any truing will violate that rule. Only thing I could suggest to meet your goal of having a true running wheel and fit those rules would be to select wheels that have low TIR without machining. Be prepared to buy about a dozen sets of BSA wheels to get three or four like that.

You make a fair point. To be honest when buying the wheels I never gave much thought to OD. In fact I bought the wheels before those rules even went out. (One would think the rule set would be out more than 2 weeks before the derby...cutting it a little close there.) All I saw was that it remained a near stock outside apearance and the weight was removed from the inside. I assumed the OD remained the same. But I guess any sort of truing would reduce OD. John has the BASX available in 1.180" but if you want to get really technical as IAE stated the stock wheel he has in front of him still comes in at 1.184.... still a reduction if only 4 thousanths.

 

[Crash Enburn]

Your rules read "NO reductions in width or diameter", Nitros are both smaller and narrower. Your rules don't say "only light sanding" either. They say "Wheels may be sanded to remove the flashing only". I don't see a grey area there. I don't think John takes a gram and a half of flashing out of the inside. But maybe he does! /images/boards/smilies/smile.gif

---

AFAIK, all John's wheels are trued on their OD, none of them would meet the posted rule set. You are not allowed to true the wheels based on what is posted. The rule says no reduction in diameter. Any truing will violate that rule. Only thing I could suggest to meet your goal of having a true running wheel and fit those rules would be to select wheels that have low TIR without machining. Be prepared to buy about a dozen sets of BSA wheels to get three or four like that.

---

You can save yourself a few purchases if you're willing to just stand at the display of wheels at the Scout shop. Mold numbers 2, 3, 8, 12, and 15 have been the best. I went through all the tubes of wheels until I'd put together a tube or two made up of those mold numbers. I'd also take each of those wheels and give them a test spin on an axle, looking for wobbles. I'd go home with the best wheels I could find.

For our Pack/District, that was plenty. At a NPWDRL race I expect to have my tuchus handed to me.

- Eric

 

[IAE Racing]

Damn, that's why I couldn't find any, you had already been there!

 

[Spirit Racing]

Here is a tip on selecting 3 good wheels out of a large patch. I use the DW wheel shaver tool for spin testing for wobble and out of round wheels. Thats all that tool is good for, other than wearing your fingers out and ruining some wheels.. If I want perfect lathe wheels I just order from DD4H. If you feel you must use out of box wheels, that is the way to go. I have helped many scouts run very fast cars with using this method of selecting the best wheels possible, without machining and in most cases didn't even have to sand the wheels much. Just takes some patience and a big bag of wheels. The rejects I send to DD4H and maybe he can machine up and make them good wheels for his customers. I just adjust the blade down real close to the wheel tread and spin the wheels and select the best and straightest wheels out of the batch.....SPIRIT....

 

[Resophonic Racing]

Hey guys, This year I used John's Nitro wheels. Below I will post the rules for wheels in our pack and I am interested in seeing if you all think that we were inside the rule set. This will help shape my decision to run these wheels again next year or not. Here are our rules:

WHEELS:

Wheels and axles must be as furnished in the official kit.No one-piece axles, washers, bushings, bearings, or springs are allowed.Wheels may be sanded to remove the flashing only.NO reductions in width or diameter, or changes in shape are allowed.All four wheels must contact the track.

What do you think?

I would say only the basx would be allowed. Nitro's are changing the original shape of the wheel by reducing it, just my .02. Our district has adopted a minimum weight rule which I think is much better and leaves no room for error.

 

[resullivan]

Most packs just copy rules from district or other packs or off the internet. IMO if they don't check for it then it is legal.

 

[Minions Racing]

This is an interesting thread. I'm struggling with this too.

I was cubmaster last year and as was the tradition, I just took the rules for the district derby and used those for the pack. The rules were almost exactly the same, "light sanding" but no reducing diameter or altering shape. If we want to be really technical, any sanding at all is going to alter the shape ever so slightly and reduce the diameter ever so slightly. I decided to interpret the rule as BASX was okay, and that is what I recommended to several parents. Come race day, I looked at the winning car and could see inside the wheels and could see weight removed and confirmed with the dad afterwards that they were 1 gram wheels. I told him my interpretation is that they would be illegal for district race but that I would check. So then I start en email thread with the distirct pinewood derby officials. They got back to me saying that the 1 grams would be okay. They said they would rather not scouts use them and they would change the rules for next year, but currently they are okay. I was surprised.

I moved to a new area this year and a couple moms asked for my help. I got a copy of the rules and it was the exact same thing. Vague. I asked the race official the week before for clarification on a few of these points, and he told me that as long as it's a bsa wheel and it looks pretty much the same then he will pass it. I kind of got the understanding that they look for a few things like significantly reduced diameter, significantly narrowed tread, non-flat shape of tread, etc. Those are the type of things they look for and what the rule wording is intended for.

So I don't know what to think. I have started interpreting "do not reduce diameter" as "do not significantly reduce the diameter a crazy amount", and "do not narrow tread" as "don't narrow tread a crazy amount". Which means 1.17" dia probably okay and 7.5mm tread prob okay. I have relatives across the country that are starting to ask for help. The rules are the same and I'm not sure what to recommend. It's almost like I want to say take one set of BASX and one set of cheetah extreme and feel out what other parents are doing and play to the level of the pack. It's frustrating.

 

[sondo007]

My opinion is your not going to get a clear cut answer to the diameter question across the board. Each Pack , District, and Council will be different. Asking for a OK from the District is about the best you are going to get. The other issue is depending on who is inspecting the car will also play a factor too. If you got "JOE SMO" checking it and doesn't know the first about PWD, but just 5 oz and 7 inches then the car will pass. If you got "PWD SUPER JOCK" then that person will be more detailed in there inspection of the tires and axles and cant and everything. Like I said I don't think you will get a clear answer on what is legal vs illegal. So with that said Buy DD4H prodcuts and keep the original box of parts for extras just in case some one complains. You should keep spare tires on hand anyway.

 

[resullivan]

The way I interpret the rule about no reshaping the wheel is that you cannot v cut or u cut the wheel. The surface must remain flat. I would also probably add that you shouldn't make razor wheels from the BSA wheels. Other than that I would think it is fair play.

 

[92hatchattack]

It is an interesting thread and as many stated you can read the rules many ways. I could live with a set of BASX for sure next year.

In the long run, where am I going to gain more speed, running straight with Nitros and bouncing around the track or running BASX and grabbing a silver bullet to setup a rail runner?

I kinda feel bad running the Nitros even though the vauge rules are pretty much open to multiple interpretations. Even the Rage would have significantly decreased the advantage. But, once again, even If I used bone stock wheels I dont think anyone was going to take us down this year.

I dont really think I was playing dirty or cheating by using the Nitros, but I do feel kinda bad about it. If for no other reason than other parents not knowing these kinds of things are available to run..... but on the other hand, how many would actually use them? They arent cheap. I know if I told other that I spent $30 on weights alone they would think that to be crazy.... But thats what I think made the difference for us this year. Using the tungsten to get that COM back to 3/4". You just cant do that with hobbby shop weights.

 

[Guest]

Here is a tip on selecting 3 good wheels out of a large patch. I use the DW wheel shaver tool for spin testing for wobble and out of round wheels. Thats all that tool is good for, other than wearing your fingers out and ruining some wheels.. If I want perfect lathe wheels I just order from DD4H. If you feel you must use out of box wheels, that is the way to go. I have helped many scouts run very fast cars with using this method of selecting the best wheels possible, without machining and in most cases didn't even have to sand the wheels much. Just takes some patience and a big bag of wheels. The rejects I send to DD4H and maybe he can machine up and make them good wheels for his customers. I just adjust the blade down real close to the wheel tread and spin the wheels and select the best and straightest wheels out of the batch.....SPIRIT....

LOL!! Great tip. Thanks! I was hoping that I could find some type of use for that thing.

 

[Guest]

It is an interesting thread and as many stated you can read the rules many ways. I could live with a set of BASX for sure next year.

In the long run, where am I going to gain more speed, running straight with Nitros and bouncing around the track or running BASX and grabbing a silver bullet to setup a rail runner?

I kinda feel bad running the Nitros even though the vauge rules are pretty much open to multiple interpretations. Even the Rage would have significantly decreased the advantage. But, once again, even If I used bone stock wheels I dont think anyone was going to take us down this year.

I dont really think I was playing dirty or cheating by using the Nitros, but I do feel kinda bad about it. If for no other reason than other parents not knowing these kinds of things are available to run..... but on the other hand, how many would actually use them? They arent cheap. I know if I told other that I spent $30 on weights alone they would think that to be crazy.... But thats what I think made the difference for us this year. Using the tungsten to get that COM back to 3/4". You just cant do that with hobbby shop weights.

HAHAHAHAHAH!!!!! You crack me up!!

 

[92hatchattack]

Yeah yeah I know I'm a newbie... at least let me pretend! Maybe I should just concentrate on learning how to polish wheel bores and stick with bone stock wheels.

 

[Guest]

Sorry fella.

I am a newbie too, but some of the stuff you say is just so far off.

This is my first time on the forum during "derby season" so it is quite interesting.

The wheels won the race.

The COM, or tungsten etc had nothing to do with it.

A concentric wheel is not to be underestimated (even taking a hair off the OD will do it).

A Lightened concentric wheel is to be feared (especially from John).

The other guys never had a chance.

It coulda been the block of wood with a little bit of weight on it.

 

[IAE Racing]

'92 I'm giving you more credit than that. I'm not a veteran yet, but wheels alone won't win races.

 

[92hatchattack]

Sorry fella.

I am a newbie too, but some of the stuff you say is just so far off.

This is my first time on the forum during "derby season" so it is quite interesting.

The wheels won the race.

The COM, or tungsten etc had nothing to do with it.

A concentric wheel is not to be underestimated (even taking a hair off the OD will do it).

A Lightened concentric wheel is to be feared (especially from John).

The other guys never had a chance.

It coulda been the block of wood with a little bit of weight on it.

I dont doubt what you are saying. I guess it just shows how far behind the curve the rest of my pack is being that in the two previous years we have taken first place both years in our age group, finishing 3rd overall the first year, and taking 2nd in district the second year.

Funny to hear that COM means nothing. It's usually the first thing you hear mentioned when starting out reading about this stuff.

This is twice now that you've stated how far off I am. How bout giving some advice instead? Is there a lot more to know before I start digging into rail running?