coning double step

[ngyoung]

A while back I was browsing YouTube and came across some new PWD related videos that I didn't see before. Being a derby nut there aren't too many I haven't come across. This one was from a vendor I usually ignore but for whatever reason it caught my attention. They were promoting their new wheel and looking up their description they chose to leave the double step but reduce and cone it. Claiming it gives more stability having the wider cone ring vs the narrow cone of conventional aftermarket wheels. It also doubles as a covert way to have a coned outer hub for scout rules that require maintaining the double step. This vendor seems to specifically market their wheels to sneak in under the radar of scout rules. One weight reduced wheel they cut at a taper so the edge still looks the same thickness as a raw wheel without leaving a lip. From their own pictures the wheel modifications still look pretty obvious.

Has anyone tried a coned hub like this who do their own wheels? Maybe John can comment if he has tried something similar before? I can see some merit to having a wider base for stability but not sure the larger circumference off sets any benefit with more friction. The stability gains may not be much when using larger diameter aftermarket axles but maybe using standard diameter BSA axles it may be an improvement.

With the current style wheels the mold marks that most scout rules say is OK to sand off or polish are no longer on the tread. The only marks that I ever see are on that double step. A lot of the same rules say the double step needs to remain intact so having an option that removes that mark on the outer hub and leaving the step would be desirable for many people getting the BASX dynasty wheels even if they aren't as fast as removing the step completely.

 

[pony express]

Many of the Cub Scout rules require the step to be left intact. That being the case you have to deal with it. Micro coning is possible, but using a ball shaped polishing bob does not leave a uniform coning. It really needs to be done on a lathe. Intact steps should be polished as much as possible and the axle head sanded smaller. I've never seen a rule requiring the axle head not be reduced in size. That's the best you can do with an intact step-outside hub.

 

[ngyoung]

I was not suggesting to polish the hub myself. I was asking if anyone who turns their own wheels have tried testing this style of hub. I am curious if this was already tried before or if it is still Un tested and may possibly have some benefit over the conventional cone hub that removes the double step.

Here is a picture to better show what I am talking about, it is the one on the right:

 

[ngyoung]

The middle pic they used to compare conventional coned hubs to their style shows a more rounded cone then what I actually see from DD4H. John's are much smaller friction area then depicted in the photo. I would say they have about as narrow edge. The difference between the 2 being that the ring of the cone is a wider diameter using the double step edge vs the bore edge.

 

[3phase]

Things like this make me want a lathe and the skills to use it properly.
And nice area to keep the track out.

 

[GravityX]

Whether this is true or not, but as I read the OP these thoughts came to mind. I haven't heard of this hub style, until now, but I don't think it provides the benefit described. In fact it may even slow the wheel, acting as a larger brake. IMO the smaller cone has less power to slow the wheel because it's point of contact, with the axle head, is closer to the center of the wheel bore, equating into a shorter "braking" lever. Extend this lever out, as suggested in the stepped cone, and now there is more leverage to "brake" or slow the wheel down. Torque! Just theorizing...

 

[Guest]

Whether this is true or not, but as I read the OP these thoughts came to mind. I haven't heard of this hub style, until now, but I don't think it provides the benefit described. In fact it may even slow the wheel, acting as a larger brake. IMO the smaller cone has less power to slow the wheel because it's point of contact, with the axle head, is closer to the center of the wheel bore, equating into a shorter "braking" lever. Extend this lever out, as suggested in the stepped cone, and now there is more leverage to "brake" or slow the wheel down. Torque! Just theorizing...

Bigger is not better in this case............I agree GX!

 

[5KidsRacing]

Whether this is true or not, but as I read the OP these thoughts came to mind. I haven't heard of this hub style, until now, but I don't think it provides the benefit described. In fact it may even slow the wheel, acting as a larger brake. IMO the smaller cone has less power to slow the wheel because it's point of contact, with the axle head, is closer to the center of the wheel bore, equating into a shorter "braking" lever. Extend this lever out, as suggested in the stepped cone, and now there is more leverage to "brake" or slow the wheel down. Torque! Just theorizing...

Paul is right.... longer lever arm=more braking=slow wheel. Anything that is slower is more stable. Velox doesn't sell fast wheels... or cars..... or axles.

 

[ngyoung]

Yes this is from Derbydust/Velox who do not have any adult league presence at all. Like I said before I usually don't pay them much attention, it was a slow day. Even a broken clock is right 2 times a day. I was wondering if they maybe stumbled onto something that may actually have some merit. I couldn't think of a big factor that would offset having the wider footprint. I didn't think about the effect having the contact point farther from the axis of rotation. I was hung up on whether any benefit to stability, possibly preventing less binding with canted axles, would be enough to offset the possible increase of contact area when using an edge with a larger circumference.

 

[Guest]

Could it be Velox drilled cars get a bit squirrely and actually benefit from the added stability his new cut provides where an excellent drilled car is stable to begin with and would only be of detriment using his design?

Maybe his cars drill job aren't spot on so having the added stability at the cost of scrubbing speed by extending the lever arm is faster than smacking the rails.

 

[txchemist]

I think Corvid has hit the nail on the head. Many clever folks working on complex problems are so happy when they find a step improvement over what they were doing, will chisel that down in stone and continue on. After a long time, they have drifted way off what a great build could be, but they have made some progress on there own process and have many sub optimal steps in an inferior process. As long as they never open their eyes to what a great process produces, or go back and re-engineer earlier steps, they are stuck in la-la land. This gets very common when you market something inferior- you get a mind set that can not drop a bad product. Velox is not alone in flooding the market with inferior ideas. In pinewood, we have something many markets do not have- that is a standard test that can accurately and inexpensively compare process.

 

[Obsessedderbydad]

Whether this is true or not, but as I read the OP these thoughts came to mind. I haven't heard of this hub style, until now, but I don't think it provides the benefit described. In fact it may even slow the wheel, acting as a larger brake. IMO the smaller cone has less power to slow the wheel because it's point of contact, with the axle head, is closer to the center of the wheel bore, equating into a shorter "braking" lever. Extend this lever out, as suggested in the stepped cone, and now there is more leverage to "brake" or slow the wheel down. Torque! Just theorizing...

Paul is right.... longer lever arm=more braking=slow wheel. Anything that is slower is more stable. Velox doesn't sell fast wheels... or cars..... or axles.

Velox doesn't make anything fast, or prove anything... They also refuse to race john as he's sent them and other business owners invite challenges. But then again, I'd be scared to race john too and put my business on the line.