Drilling degreed hole for steer wheel

[EvilJester]

I’m sure someone has figured this out and what degree for increments of steer.
The rule I’m trying to work around states no bent axles. They allow 3 wheel touch but recently excluded bent axles, which basically takes away the ability to steer the car.
I’m hoping someone has tested drilling the steer wheel hole and has some info on what degree and angle.

 

[FDM]

I’m sure someone has figured this out and what degree for increments of steer.
The rule I’m trying to work around states no bent axles. They allow 3 wheel touch but recently excluded bent axles, which basically takes away the ability to steer the car.
I’m hoping someone has tested drilling the steer wheel hole and has some info on what degree and angle.

Which race does allow 3 wheels touching but no bent axles? Just ludicrous. But to answer your question, with a 5 inch wheel base for a 4 inch over 4 feet you will probably need an angle just shy of 1 degree according to my calculations. Not sure how much the amount of weight you have on your front wheel will affect this, so for less weight you might need more angle. Not sure how much vertical angle you need to minimize contact with the rail, 2-4 degrees? I would say drill a few test holes and see how it looks and runs. If you don't mind more wheel contact with the rail, who is gonna see a 1-2 degree bent in the axle? We have a pinewood derby car from 2 years back, and I cannot see that the front axle is bend, yet the car is a rail rider. Another option is to an aftermarket block of wood that has the steering wheel hole already drilled under an angle, like DD4H plug and play blocks. Unless ofcourse the rules state you have to use the official pinewood derby block.

 

[EvilJester]

The NYC Championship race. They just sent out an FAQ and it now states no bent axles. We put a ton of work into his car theme and not really interested in making a new one. Nor do I think we have enough time to reproduce the paint theme.
I have an old car I can attempt drilling different degree holes and see where it puts it. Just thought someone would have the correct degree measurements.

 

[Vitamin K]

I would drill a hole with 5-7 degrees of positive camber and neutral toe. Then I'd get a bunch of BSA axles and find the one with the most wobble and use that one in the DFW. Doesn't take much bend to set your toe. The "natural" deviance of BSA axles should do ya, I bet.

 

[DerbyDad4Hire]

Excellent advice VK. Drill the cant in an slightly bend an axle. Good luck enforcing that rule.

 

[Bw56]

If I (the evil one) had to enforce that rule, the first thing I'd look for is the Slot in the axle head. Then obvious tire toe. So keep it slight to avoid drawing attention to the car.

 

[Mojo Racing]

Take a look at the slot?

That isn't a dead give-a-way. I put slot in ALL of my axles. It makes it easier to remove the axles.

 

[FDM]

We will be drilling the DFW hole under an angle, so that might result in us being ask to remove the axle since it will have a very obvious cant. My big worry is that removing and putting the axle back might mess up our steer a bit though since those BSA axles are not straight. We have been playing with drilling the canted hole and the steer varies depending on how we insert the axle. And that is with an official BSA axle with no bending of our own. Still this no bend axle rule is the most backward rule I ever have encountered. It makes it much harder for a scout (or parent) to adjust the amount of steer to get a a stable car. Worse is that we have to modify his current car, we will drill a new front hole and hope it goes well, we only have a small amount of wood to work with so if the first hole doesn't work we have to glue in extra wood to be able to drill a new hole. I am afraid the car will end up like Swiss cheese. I thought about building a new car but we just don't have time for that.

By the way, if I had to enforce that rule I would have everyone pull his dominant front axle, and to boot I would have graphite put on one of the back axle of each car to make sure no one is running oil. No I am not evil, just trying to enforce the rules.

 

[FDM]

If I (the evil one) had to enforce that rule, the first thing I'd look for is the Slot in the axle head. Then obvious tire toe. So keep it slight to avoid drawing attention to the car.

This would mainly be a tip for people who are not using standard BSA axles and don't want to have their axles pulled. The slight bent you need for the steer is not that easy to see to the naked eye and is also the natural curve in many BSA axles. How they gonna tell the bent was put in or already in the BSA axle? But I do agree that a slot in the axle head would arouse suspicion.

 

[Mojo Racing]

We will be drilling the DFW hole under an angle, so that might result in us being ask to remove the axle since it will have a very obvious cant. My big worry is that removing and putting the axle back might mess up our steer a bit though since those BSA axles are not straight. We have been playing with drilling the canted hole and the steer varies depending on how we insert the axle. And that is with an official BSA axle with no bending of our own. Still this no bend axle rule is the most backward rule I ever have encountered. It makes it much harder for a scout (or parent) to adjust the amount of steer to get a a stable car. Worse is that we have to modify his current car, we will drill a new front hole and hope it goes well, we only have a small amount of wood to work with so if the first hole doesn't work we have to glue in extra wood to be able to drill a new hole. I am afraid the car will end up like Swiss cheese. I thought about building a new car but we just don't have time for that.

By the way, if I had to enforce that rule I would have everyone pull his dominant front axle, and to boot I would have graphite put on one of the back axle of each car to make sure no one is running oil. No I am not evil, just trying to enforce the rules.

make a mark at the top or bottom of your axle head so you know the position of your axle. This will help you remember where the axle is supposed to be if you have to remove it.

 

[FDM]

Yes I am planning to mark the axle however when playing with it I noticed that being slightly off already results in way less steer, so without tuning board it is difficult to get the best steer. But what can we do, we will go and hope for the best. I wonder how much the smaller diameter axles (we normally run 92-93TX) will influence the stability of the car. Any suggestions for the wheel gap when using the standard BSA size axle?

 

[CTDerbyDad]

By the way, if I had to enforce that rule I would have everyone pull his dominant front axle, and to boot I would have graphite put on one of the back axle of each car to make sure no one is running oil. No I am not evil, just trying to enforce the rules.

My son glues his axles in after the got pushed in during inspection one year at districts (should have seen his face when his car didn't even finish its first race), so nothing is getting pulled hopefully. He has straight BSA axles, so I doubt there will be a problem there. I do completely agree with added some graphite to make sure oil isn't being used.

 

[FDM]

My son glues his axles in after the got pushed in during inspection one year at districts (should have seen his face when his car didn't even finish its first race), so nothing is getting pulled hopefully. He has straight BSA axles, so I doubt there will be a problem there. I do completely agree with added some graphite to make sure oil isn't being used.

I wonder how they deal with canted wheels where the axles have been glued in? I was also thinking about gluing the axles in, we normally use oversize axles which are bigger in diameter than the BSA axles, which means the BSA axles are much looser in the hole. I know some water will make the hole smaller but I am still afraid they might come out during the race. However we have canted holes (straight axles) and I am afraid they will ask us to pull the axle, which will be more difficult when I glue them in, and will leave me again with loose axles if I manage to get them out. I (and I think everyone else who is going) wished they just kept the rules similar to last year. In that case we only would have needed to prepare a new set of wheels. Now with the BSA axle and no bend axles a lot more work, we were thinking about building a new car but since his current car was faster than his car from last year in NYC and the simple fact we are just to busy with other stuff means we will need to mod his current car. I guess we are not the only one in this boat at the moment.

 

[CTDerbyDad]

I wonder how they deal with canted wheels where the axles have been glued in?

I imagine they'll look for axles with tuning slots or marks. While those aren't illegal, they are, as others pointed out, a good reason to take a closer look.

 

[EvilJester]

We had to change up his car as well. In order to follow the “no bent axles” we filled the hole with a toothpick and wood glue. Re-sanded it, re cleared and polished the side. Drilled the cant and tow. Using a Straight BSA axle, I’m getting the exact steer I was looking for. Ran a few test runs and it’s very consistent. Not that I’m wanting anything pulled from the car but with drilling the toe and cant, marking top and bottom with a sharpie, I’m more confident that if an inspection is required, we have a good chance of setting it back up where it was.

What bothers me the most is, these kids win their pack races, then district races with the cars set to the rules provided. Which is 3 wheel touch and no rules on bent axles in most cases. By rule, you are to use the same car you qualified with in NYC. With adding the no bent axle rule ( at the last minute) your now altering that car, which makes it, not the same car you qualified with.
Even if you know nothing about building a Pinewood derby car, where do you look for answers? YouTube! The first thing that comes up in the “making a fast Pinewood derby car”, is rail riding with a bent steering axle.
I don’t know, they must have had a lot of whining from people for them to add this.

Thanks to everyone that helped. It took a lot of practice drilling but ended up working out great in the end. Looking forward to seeing all the kids and their cars this weekend. I posted a pic of my sons car in an earlier post. If any of you guys are headed up and see it, please stop us and say hi. It’s always nice to put faces to names.

Good luck.

 

[FDM]

EvilJester, you could not have said it any better, I also feel that kids should be able to race their pack/districts cars without having to mod them and possibly slow them down. We drilled a new hole next to the old hole, just had enough wood left (I hope, didn't remove our bottom foil when drilling) and with a straight BSA axle we have about the same amount of steer as with the old setup with the bend axle, however it seems a bit less stable on our wooden test track. If we see you car around (and the people cheering for it) we will drop by and say hi, which den are you guys in?

 

[EvilJester]

EvilJester, you could not have said it any better, I also feel that kids should be able to race their pack/districts cars without having to mod them and possibly slow them down. We drilled a new hole next to the old hole, just had enough wood left (I hope, didn't remove our bottom foil when drilling) and with a straight BSA axle we have about the same amount of steer as with the old setup with the bend axle, however it seems a bit less stable on our wooden test track. If we see you car around (and the people cheering for it) we will drop by and say hi, which den are you guys in?

He’s racing in Bear. We have two scouts from our pack making the trip. Both in Bear, both named Gavin and placed 1st and 2nd overall at their district race LOL.

Hope to see you guys there