Our district and Pack have banned oil after allowing it since at least 2005. They are also abandoning a 42' Best Track to go to a "more equitable" wooden track. One of my three boys has won the Pack & our district each year except one since ' 08. We have always used John's products and methods to great success. Our rules only states "Dry Lube Only, No Oil" I have asked for clarification but my inquiry has not been answered. i feel like we are being set up to be DQ'd because of sour grapes. Are the PTFE products like DuPont in the blue can reallly "Dry Lubes? If so, will We have any success using only the PTFE? Or, is the oil the real speed trick? What would you recommend, the PTFE or true graphite? If graphite is the answer, what is the most effective way to apply? Any feedback would be helpful, we need to start prepping wheels and axles ASAP and do not want to waste any time prepping then having to start over. We also do not want to be DQ'd. Thanks
Dry Lube?
- Thread starter jeffreyl7
- Start date
Ok first of all the type of track you are racing on will determine how we proceed. Although lube is major key contributor to speed, alignment is the foundation. Use the DD4H graphite and bore prep - DO NOT USE PTFE on the axles. IMHO weight placement and how you set the car up is going to win the race on a wooden track. Do you know any of the following:
Does the wooden track have a center rail?
What type of slope does the starting gate have?
What type of stop section does the track have?
What are the rules for the Wheels and Axles?
Let us know and we will give you some tips
Does the wooden track have a center rail?
What type of slope does the starting gate have?
What type of stop section does the track have?
What are the rules for the Wheels and Axles?
Let us know and we will give you some tips
First, we need to win our Pack divisions to advance, which is still on a Best Track. It sounds like we are going to have to use two setups. I am told the old wooden track has a std guide strip, not an open style lane, which will still allow us to rail ride, but other than that, we only know that the track is very old but has been refurbished by a cabinet maker who is now the new PWD District chairman, so I am afraid it is here to stay. The only wheel profile cannot change, so we will use some left over dynasty wheels and axles. We will only need to clean and re prep with graphite.
If you want some of the best info on scout cars, go to http://5kidsracing.webs.com/ it may be of some help
If you can't use the oil then do not spray the axles. Clean them after polishing with Pledge.
As far at setup goes, if you can't tune on the track then you are guessing. When in doubt I always do 3" over 4'. It is safe. Your problem is you will still probably be racing oil cars.
As far at setup goes, if you can't tune on the track then you are guessing. When in doubt I always do 3" over 4'. It is safe. Your problem is you will still probably be racing oil cars.
DD4H is right there's always thoses what try to slip something in
& it seemed like the scout level was the worse to me
A common trick used when only dry lub is allowed. They prep the wheel bores and axels like in the DD4H video (or buy ready preped wheels and axles). Then they prep the axles and bores with a minimum amount of oil, 2 drops at the most. THEN, they carefully put graphite on a cloth and apply it the outside of the wheels and on the inside outer edge, being careful to keep the grphite from being anywhere close to the axle and bore. At a large race (100+ cars) a year ago, I was asked to weigh and measure about half of the cars. Without saying anything, I looked carefully at the cars, i.e. the spot wher the axle enters the body. I saw at least 10 that had graphite on the wheels, but none on the tiny part of the axle I could see or on the wheel hubs. I kept track of several that I suspected had oil, and they were all in the finals. I wrote National about the graphite rule, and their answer was that boys of that age always use too much oil, and it ends up on the tracks, expecially damaging wooden tracks (thier claim, not mine). But I have worked with a lot of boys where oil was allowed, and without supervision, they almost always used too much.
I have personally been lambasted for suggesting this procedure on this forum. But the fact is, in areas where Pinewood Racing is taken seriously, this proceduree is used by most of the winners. However, for those who want to be sure the graphite rule is adhered to, you have to remove one of the rear wheels and look at the bore with a strong magnifying glass. No matter how frugle the builder was in applying oil, you will still will see very tiny droplets in the wheel bore. If I were doing this, I would only do it to the winners.
Re: Veer (or steer). I use 12-13 inches over 8 feet for aluminum traks, AND 8 to 10 inches on wood tracks.
I have personally been lambasted for suggesting this procedure on this forum. But the fact is, in areas where Pinewood Racing is taken seriously, this proceduree is used by most of the winners. However, for those who want to be sure the graphite rule is adhered to, you have to remove one of the rear wheels and look at the bore with a strong magnifying glass. No matter how frugle the builder was in applying oil, you will still will see very tiny droplets in the wheel bore. If I were doing this, I would only do it to the winners.
Re: Veer (or steer). I use 12-13 inches over 8 feet for aluminum traks, AND 8 to 10 inches on wood tracks.
Opa, I fully endorse this when rules state dry lube only. If the point is to make sure the track doesn't get fouled then no sign of oil should be no problem. The fact is it is a case of "I don't know how to do it, therefore I will make it illegal."
Last year, a mother, father, and a grandpa with two boys came to me bringing thier finshed cars with them, wanting me to make them go faster. The whole family looked like they were righ out of Nerdsville. The two boys had braces on rather bucked teeth and glasses with coke bottle bottoms. They told me that the previous year their cars finished last, one not making it to the end of the track. Their cars had been carved (by their Grandpa) out of a full pinewood block, and one was backwards according to the BSA slots. In two hours, I sawed off the bottom where the slots were, drilled the holes using the BLOCK, thru away their nails and wheels (which were 2.5 grams). I gave them a set of my reject wheels (2.2's) with 91 axels which I had over sanded. I preped the cars according to my above procedure (i.e. very light oil and grphite on o/s of wheels), set the steer, and told them that was a good as I could do. Areodynamically, the cars were terrible, and frankly they still looked nerdy.
Two weeks later the whole family asked if they could come over. They brought us a huge Honey Roasted Ham. The two boys showed us four trophies. First in each of their groups, and first and second over all. They were the Kings of that Hill. The looks on their faces was full payback.
Two weeks later the whole family asked if they could come over. They brought us a huge Honey Roasted Ham. The two boys showed us four trophies. First in each of their groups, and first and second over all. They were the Kings of that Hill. The looks on their faces was full payback.
John,
I saw where you posted polishing the axles with Pledge. I have bought your dvd and your polishing kit. We have to run grahphite on our cars. Do you suggest Pledge after going through all of the grit sandpaper and polishing liquid provided in your kit? Thanks
I saw where you posted polishing the axles with Pledge. I have bought your dvd and your polishing kit. We have to run grahphite on our cars. Do you suggest Pledge after going through all of the grit sandpaper and polishing liquid provided in your kit? Thanks
Well, I want to stay above the law, so to speak, so we will truly use John's graphite products. I think we are the reason, they are trying to even up the field, because our cars the last 4 yrs have been winning consistently by 1-3 car lengths. One of my three boys have won the district crown every year since '08 and we nearly had a sweep last year. My boys truly build the cars despite the whispers and even outright complaints. We build three cars a piece every year and tune them as best we can. I sent a car to John to tune and we use that car as our gauge. I know it will happen, that we will get beat this year by oil, but we will be able to hold our heads high knowing we followed the rules. I am hoping our tooling, design and experience will get us into the finals. We have never raced with graphite or on a wooden track, so it will be a whole new experience. We have a system of building cars that we learned from all you guys on this board. We want to thank all of you for all the info and for our successes. We have sent our cars to some NPWDRL races over the last few years. We have a lot of fun watching over the web feeds. We will not send any of the graphite cars, but I am trying my hand at building a couple of extended WB cars that hopefully will be ready by the Feb 16 event. Thanks again.
Thanks for encouragement. We will be hosting Day 2 of our annual Workshop at my business tomorrow. We had 4 boys and parents last week. We always get a huge number of kids (15+) the last week before the race which is the 26th. We also always have a couple of boys who show up with the unopen box, with usually a mom with that deer in the headlight look. So we will be prepared to really dig in with a couple of boys. When I help another boy as I do my own, I use the kiss method. Simple Wedge, belt sander and have them lightly hit the axles and wheels, a file and polish, then some graphite. At least the boy will not be embarrassed to show up with his car on race day. As for our cars, I just don't want to be accused of bending the rules and see a ton of cars that I know will be running oil at the District Level with graphite smuged on the side for looks. It is too bad, that they won't really look at all these cars the way they do ours each year at check in. We want to stay within the rules. The preious District PWD Chairman ran the race for 18 years with the same rule, tight but fair and unless it was a glaring violation, like pine pro wheels or only three wheels on the car, every infraction was given 20 minutes to bring it to specs, afterall it is about the kids. He told me he had only 7 DQ's in 18 yrs. These new rules, supposedly more equitable than the previous 18 yrs, will allow for more cheating under the table, by not specifying dementions of the wheels, no restrictions on whether it needs 4 wheels, etc, plus abandoning a perfectly good Aluminum Track for an older Wooden Track that the District abandoned in 2005. Sorry, I have no one else to vent to. Even a poorly constructed car wil at least run on an aluminum track, giving all the boys at least a chance to play in the big game so to speak. From what I have been told about this track is it is in poor shape and there will be a lot crashes and broken cars. I guess we will go with our usual COG for our Pack on a Best Track then, at the District, watch the Tiger Division and adjust accordingly. We are lucky we will be able to see some races before the Wolf and Web 1's. My son who is now a Star Scout, won his pack by accident as a Tiger. We wollered out the front axle holes the night before the race trying to get that darn thing to track straight. We filled them with glue and the left front was off the ground and no matter what we did, it still drifted left. Grandpa and I thought his car was doomed. He won the pack and beat the previous years Distict Champ who was from our Pack. Unknowingly, we had a rail rider. From then on, we hit the net and found many of you on an old pwd board that will remain nameless, but, that is how I found John at DDH and a few others who have been so gracious to give us advise. Hence our passion was born. Sorry, I have the gift of Gab...
Man you guys are making me nervous about our district race with this oil plus graphite window dressing. We won the pack through hard work, lots of time to start and stop when my Tiger got bored (he really worked on his car - I did final touch up) and nothing but dry graphite with 4 flat on an aluminum track. He ran 3.1 and his den mate was a fraction behind for second. Oh and his car is on the no-lead weights, but not tungsten.
The district is on wood, and I hope they inspect carefully. We don't expect to win being this is our first year, but it sucks to lose to a cheater rather than lose fair and square. No matter where he places, it will be 100% by the rule book. I want him to be proud and honest, no matter what the outcome.
The district is on wood, and I hope they inspect carefully. We don't expect to win being this is our first year, but it sucks to lose to a cheater rather than lose fair and square. No matter where he places, it will be 100% by the rule book. I want him to be proud and honest, no matter what the outcome.
Well, we swept our Pack with 1st Web 1, 1st Wolf, 1st, 2nd in Pack. We did use only graphite. Neither Car lost a heat. My Web 1 son's car won all his heats by at least one car length, by Wolf won all his but a couple to the third place car were only by 1/2 car length. My two boys never got to race in the same heat, not even in the finals. Our Pack has a 3 Lane 35' Best Track and the timing and computer arranges the heats and uses wins, place and et to determine the winners. So, we never got to see them go head to head. The system does not show the overall times just a point system, fewest points wins. It is tough to evaluate a car without seeing true times. We own a 2 lane 32' Derby Magic Track and both cars were running 2.350-2.357. In comparison, my oldest son's car from last year, which ran some 2.969 heats at the Rocky Mtn Speedway March Madness, ran 2.310 on our track. I lubed it up Friday night with DDH oil mix and it ran 2.400 consistantly. I think this years cars are actually better, but I think the graphite costs these cars 1/10th or more. I am not confident that the race officials at our District race will be able to catch the cars with oil and we will get smoked. Plus, there is the unknown wooden track. We are going to continue to dress with graphite. I think we have tuned them to get the most out of them for our track but I am not sure about our COG & steer for this wooden track, it will be a crap shoot. I have toy'd with the idea of adding an inch of steer and changing COG from 11/16" to 1", to account for a potentially rough track but I am scared for the boys to touch the cars too much.
Congrats on the wins.
And, I'm glad to hear that you will continue to abide by the rules -- even with the expectation that others won't. It sends the right message to the boys: affirming the scout motto, "Do your best."
And, I'm glad to hear that you will continue to abide by the rules -- even with the expectation that others won't. It sends the right message to the boys: affirming the scout motto, "Do your best."
I wouldn't change the COG, you could consider a little more steer if you know that the track might be a little rough. And I very much applaude your attitude.
Use the oppotunity to instill the values you want them to have, these opportunities are important to utilize.
Similar threads
