First Post and Mid America questions

[Minions Racing]

Here are Greg's times:

	Green	Yellow	Red	White	Black	Blue	Avg
Prelim	2.9731	2.9898	2.9753	2.9682	2.9697	2.9958	2.9787
Finals	2.9660	2.9606	2.9830	2.9559	2.9671	2.9592	2.9653
Delta	-0.0071	-0.0292	0.0077	-0.0123	-0.0026	-0.0366	-0.0133

There was a small amount of shuffling between prelims and finals with other cars, but nothing as dramatic as with Greg's improved times. I'm still somewhat new, though, so is this amount of variability normal? Or was it just this particular track setup?

Also, I'm curious about the Nellie Faye style fenders, has anybody else noticed their car speeding up when it runs with faster cars?

 

[Minions Racing]

Oh, and don't get me wrong, I'm not claiming any misdeeds, I'm just legitimately curious. I wasn't going to send in a car at all because I didn't think the 2g wheels I had would be light enough to compete, but Greg encouraged me to send a car in anyway and I was thrilled to get 12th. My car had fenders, but was slower in the finals.

 

[E.T.Racing]

Most races that I have seen the cars that make the finals will run faster because they do not have the slower cars dragging them back. Luck of the draw in the prelims, get next to a cars that has a bad case of the wiggles will really slow you down

unless your prep can get you off the line ahead of the pack.

 

[GravityX]

Agree 100% on this. I had this happen to one of my cars in the April race, slowed my car down by about .025 seconds during one run and raised my average time.

... get next to a cars that has a bad case of the wiggles will really slow you down

unless your prep can get you off the line ahead of the pack.

 

[DerbyDad4Hire]

The Nellie Faye fenders are not the reason. There is NO doubt that style of fender is slower. There were definitely timing differences because of the ESS not working correctly and having to adjust the handle each time to get it to fire. Each adjust of the handle changed the times. The ESS needed a slight adjustment. Relubes will also mess with times. I am certain is was not the fender though. I will make a set to do a demonstration to show the difference. Not trying to knock anothers product but I will make sure that people don't waste their time or money on a product that will not help.

 

[DerbyDad4Hire]

Looking further at the picture of Gregs car, it would have been .01 faster if the proper fenders would have been used. Those things are parachutes.

 

[Knotty Racing]

What does a Quicktime car look like?

Also, does the Street Pro? class have the same rules as MA adult class? (I didn't think so?)

How can you compare the two tracks unless you can run a couple cars multiple times on each track to calibrate so to speak?

Greg, I was hoping that some of the builders would post their own pics and I wouldn't have to rely on you for them. I appreciate your dedication to the MA race, it was fun and I am sure you learned alot as well. This is all new for me too and now I am just trying to piece it together to digest it all. A few have posted pics like 5Kids - thanks to all that have posted pics.

Some good discussions so far.

 

[DerbyDad4Hire]

I can compare because I have seen both run on my track. You are right that the rules don't match up. Don't be offended if builders don't want their car pictures posted. Some of these guys have great ideas and they don't want to just give away their work and advantage. I highly recommend racing with the guys here. They will be more likely to share more inside info with people who are participating on a somewhat regular basis. If league racing is not for you then you definitely don't need to employ these extremes to win scout races. If you do then you have foundation problems with your builds that you need to correct before you mess with some of the crazy builds that go on in the league races.

What does a Quicktime car look like?

Also, does the Street Pro? class have the same rules as MA adult class? (I didn't think so?)

How can you compare the two tracks unless you can run a couple cars multiple times on each track to calibrate so to speak?

Greg, I was hoping that some of the builders would post their own pics and I wouldn't have to rely on you for them. I appreciate your dedication to the MA race, it was fun and I am sure you learned alot as well. This is all new for me too and now I am just trying to piece it together to digest it all. A few have posted pics like 5Kids - thanks to all that have posted pics.

Some good discussions so far.

 

[xanthrum]

John, I am not saying that the Nelly Faye fender was the difference... that helped the car win.. in Fact I am FIRMLY convinced that Beth's car would have whipped this car if her fenders had not fallen off. The steer you have to have with the nelly faye fenders is much more than a car with out or with a standard fender type (Nelly Faye = 6 1/2'' drift over 4 feet - Beth's car = 3 1/4'' drift over 4 feet)... those two cars were set up completely differently - the wheel base on my car was standard wheelbase (not extended) and on Beth's car it was 5'' - also with the my car i had three rows of tungston cubes behind the axle and with Beth's only 2 rows.. i had to move one cube way forward with my car just to have a reasonable COG - There is no doubt in my mind that a car like Beth's was easier to tune - and faster as her prelim times prove... I would guess that there was some mishap on her first prelim run as that car could never run a time like it did in its first run... but just to be perfectly clear I am not saying that the Nelly Faye fender is a faster fender... I am however saying that it is more dramatically impacted by the cars around it... and the Beth's car was affected less by the cars around it. I could be wrong... just my observation.

 

[Knotty Racing]

DD4H,

"If league racing is not for you then you definitely don't need to employ these extremes to win scout races. If you do then you have foundation problems with your builds that you need to correct before you mess with some of the crazy builds that go on in the league races."

Our council race is 4 times larger than MA and takes place over 2 days with scouts from 12 counties in 2 states. Does that sound extreme enough? We placed 3rd in Bears at this event this year - .014 slower than the fastest run of the fastest car of the weekend. (Yes we smoke our pack, except for an incident with someone running illegal lightened wheels that got past inspection)

I am just hoping to learn more so we can get faster.

I don't have any experience with oil and we have to run graphite at our scout level. The main reason we entered MA race was to get a bench mark and that is why I started this post. I am still trying to sort out all of the information for the open scouts - seems like apples to oranges (oil vs graphite). With the exception of the elusive graphite run of 2.914 tin the open adults that I would have never thought possible.

I am very open to being told if we have fundamental build problems. I could be wrong but guessing that we placed 4th in the open kids and were doing well in the open scouts against oil, that we are in the ballpark. My wifes open adult car was .01 faster than the kids cars, but I could not keep it there as it did have a build problem - the front axle hole was loose and would not hold the tune. Thus it was submitted at .01 slower than the kids cars to the MA race.

I already see that our builds are different than what I am seeing here. Looks like alot of people are using a ply laminate top here and a simplier body shape. Our bodies have all come out of kit blocks.

Now, I know we have our work to do. First on the current list is to build a tuning table, unless that is not a top priority to go faster.

I am all ears.

 

[DerbyDad4Hire]

I don't care if your council race is 80 times as big. I can build a car in 1 hour that will win it hands down. If I can build that car then you can build that car. My point is if you want to actually learn how then you have to compete. You will never get to that point without actually racing against the fast cars and learning from your experience. The other problem is you have not figured out where the actual most beneficial information is. This is not meant as an attack towards you but you are asking the same questions on every forum and you are going to get steered in different ways further complicating what you are trying to do. If you want to learn how to build the fastest cars then you better learn from the fastest builders. You are in the right place to do that here. The first step you need to take is to focus in on the forum you "believe."

Next, I hate to keep harping on this, if you want a true benchmark then why on earth would you choose MA? If you don't have experience with oil then you need to get some. Most scout races say dry lube only. Sorry to say it but my oil process appears dry at race time. The coaches lube is legal and it does not go on dry. Rule interpretation is the #1 skill to pinewood derby. You would have had NO CHANCE against the Mueller car just for the fact of the wheel configuration. It was not illegal. The car was built to the rules. FACT #1- The amount of cheating that goes on in pinewood derby scout events is staggering and if you don't take advantage of every grey area then you will not have a chance. Blame it on the ridiculous rules that are made for the events. Graphite only is one of the most ridiculous. Since this thread is about MA then I will use it as an example. For me it doesn't make sense to say graphite only but allow lightened wheels. In my opinion it will be much easier for someone to learn to use oil then to learn how to lighten a wheel. The only people that whine about races being graphite only are the ones that don't know how to use oil and don't want to invest the time to learn. The Tom Foolery of everyone being on a level playing field is a joke when you make restrictive rules because I guarantee that at very least 10 to 20% of the MA cars where running oil instead of graphite. There are always going to be cheaters and making rules you can't 100% check is nothing but a waste of time and gives the cheaters an advantage. The same mentality carries over into league racing too. That is why you see a stupid class made for graphite only. Do you honestly believe that the league racers were all running graphite in those tailor made classes? Prepping a car for oil and graphite are exactly the same except for the final step on the axle and wheel bore. If it is taking you more than 15 to 20 minutes to prep your wheels and axles then you are really taking your time or going WAY overboard.

You don't have to HOPE to learn more to go faster, the info is all sitting right here under your nose. You will have to hope if you are following advice from the wrong people. If somebody has a faster method then I would tell you. Too many people are getting led off by guys like Sporty who have their own agenda. Guys like that will make it out to be a hard thing to build a fast car. I can tell you where your problems are... IF I CAN SEE THE CAR. That is one other benefit to racing here. I love Greg but you will not get the feedback you are wanting sending to scout races. I will never understand the mentality of "if I have no chance to win then I am not going to race," and that is a common theme with the majority of people on the boards. The evidence is in the turnout for MA. People have had a primo event to race at every month with a finely tuned track, fantastic live feed and professional help with hands on access to your car and yet they don't take advantage. You will NEVER be able to reach the point you want without racing with these guys. That is a FACT.

Your first thing to be planning on should be the real National Championship race. That is where you will get your true baseline and then you will know how much you need to improve to be able to dominate your local racing. If you are within .04 of the top racers here then you will win 99.9% of all the scout races out there.

Yes you do need some sort of tuning table also! A coffee table will do in a pinch, a cheap wal mart door mirror, or basically anything you can level side to side and prop up on one side. You can also build a nice fancy board if that is what you want!

I apologize for the blunt sermon. Nothing personal.

DD4H,

"If league racing is not for you then you definitely don't need to employ these extremes to win scout races. If you do then you have foundation problems with your builds that you need to correct before you mess with some of the crazy builds that go on in the league races."

Our council race is 4 times larger than MA and takes place over 2 days with scouts from 12 counties in 2 states. Does that sound extreme enough? We placed 3rd in Bears at this event this year - .014 slower than the fastest run of the fastest car of the weekend. (Yes we smoke our pack, except for an incident with someone running illegal lightened wheels that got past inspection)

I am just hoping to learn more so we can get faster.

I don't have any experience with oil and we have to run graphite at our scout level. The main reason we entered MA race was to get a bench mark and that is why I started this post. I am still trying to sort out all of the information for the open scouts - seems like apples to oranges (oil vs graphite). With the exception of the elusive graphite run of 2.914 tin the open adults that I would have never thought possible.

I am very open to being told if we have fundamental build problems. I could be wrong but guessing that we placed 4th in the open kids and were doing well in the open scouts against oil, that we are in the ballpark. My wifes open adult car was .01 faster than the kids cars, but I could not keep it there as it did have a build problem - the front axle hole was loose and would not hold the tune. Thus it was submitted at .01 slower than the kids cars to the MA race.

I already see that our builds are different than what I am seeing here. Looks like alot of people are using a ply laminate top here and a simplier body shape. Our bodies have all come out of kit blocks.

Now, I know we have our work to do. First on the current list is to build a tuning table, unless that is not a top priority to go faster.

I am all ears.

 

[Mr Chips Racing]

The Godfather has spoken. Can I get an Amen?!?

 

[Chief]

AMEN!!!! I will be the first to say that DD4H will do exactly what he says he will do, about telling you about the mistakes that were made in the building of your car...Take mine for Xample, I had inadvertently built my car upside down and he called and told me about it...call it a blond moment haha

The Godfather has spoken. Can I get an Amen?!?

 

[g.o.racing]

+++++1 on the AMEN

Sent in my first car for April race,got to go down the track right beside the green and red widow from MR. jbo7 now thats a school lesson. And all I have to say to MR. jb is YOU THE MAN.....thanx for the whoopin

I think the terminator said it best I'LL BE BACK

 

[Guest]

+++++1 on the AMEN

You want proof that DD4H is serious, the man took my last car in the April race that I built and at its best run was 3.02*, the next day DD4H switch out my tires and axle and reran my car again with the tires off of his car (talk about taking the shirt off your back). The same car with new tires/axle, ran 2.967. Dude that's just scary and that was my 4th race. So the man knows his STUFF and so do the other guys on this forum. AMEN!!

 

[DEW36]

Well said Godfather!! AMEN!!

 

[aircooled]

Clear and to the point, I would expect nothing less!! That is why the NPWDRL is best, it is built on a strong foundation.

 

[Papa V Racing]

I got to say AMEN!!! As Well ..

If you want to have fun and learn this is a great spot... Even if you do not race every month.. I have learned tons here I have only raced once so far I have one more race coming up soon in June for BBU and I want to build the next generation Papa V car.. I have had help and tons of reading assignments but it is all worth it... As far as the MA thing goes .. Let that pass and move up into the League Racing here at NPWDRL ... John has said it everything we need is right in front of us.. I know there are racers here and they will say it over and over again ... We the newer generation racer have it so easy compared to those that have been around for a bit ... So when John hands out info it is not to pass up... There are many forums out there and it is sad to say I was there online MA and kept quiet reading things being posted ... I am not bashing anyone here or anywhere else but I had to stop and think as I do have common sense as to just let it roll off ...

I will be here for a long time and I may never be the fastest and that is ok I am here to have fun, race and Poke Mr. Chips here and there with Sondo, Mofast, Dew36, Reso, Zeebs, Rocket, W&K, My online Chataholic Gravity X and many others ... I have had more fun and life changing events from this board and the guys that rock it here.... Again I know there are good guys else where but I felt at home here and this is where I hang my hat as long as John lets me ... When I fist came here I was wanting to do many things and then I get to reading and reading and found out I can't do as much as I thought I could and wanted to do... But in time I will be where I will be and that is working on the next goal... and when I get that done I will set another and another and so on .. I just want my car to go down that track at race day .. One day it will be faster and better but man what fun I have getting to know these guys....

I still think there should be a chat badge for the Proxy racers that mix it, stir it and shake that chat room during race day ... My buddy Gravity X & I can't sit quiet in a race ... LOL ...

I think I went astray again ...

Papa V

 

[Knotty Racing]

Clearly I need to get some experience with oil so I watched the Oil DVD again last night.

So this is the list of stuff I need to run in the street stock amatuer class?

From DD4H;
Cheetah V.2 Wheels
92 BSA Axles - ? grooves or no groves? Points or no Points?
#43 carbide bit
Wheel Bore Polish Kit
Axle Polish Kit
Selvyt Cloth
Wheel Bore Applicators
Pipe Cleaners
Krytox Oil
Delrin Washer
Car Carrier
Fenders
Entry Fee for the June Race in Milwaukee

Outside Sources;
Tuning table of some sort
DuPont Blue Can Teflon spray

Already have's;
Silver Bullet
2010 Oil DVD

What else am I missing or do I have wrong?

Any Tips before I get started would be appreciated as to reduce the degree of whoopin received from running against the finest in June.

 

[Chief]

You need to research this forum about the DuPont blue can. I do not believe it is the same stuff. Someone said they changed that particular formula but some other DuPont chain lube was the same..it may have been 5Kids but I am not sure on that. If you can just try to find some Jig-a-Loo in the Orange can and use it instead of DuPont. Other than that your list looks good to me! Best of luck to you!