i read that as either or. the only way to know for sure is ask the person running the race. or just use good BSA wheels and when they question it use thier own rules on them. just say, it says here or parallel BSA.
Help, big race coming in Canada
- Thread starter heidi
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- Nov 24, 2011
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As mentioned, the wheels in the Canadian sets are made in China; if you use some wheels from outside of Canada be warned that even the worst inspector would have no problems noticing that the wheels you are using are not from Canada. You also risk being accused of having an EBay car as far as I am aware, none of the EBay cars use wheels from Canada.
Are the big circles on top of your cars your weight? You want to have your weight low.
Are the big circles on top of your cars your weight? You want to have your weight low.
DNA RACING said:
I did a bit of research on this, and it seems that the Kub Kar Kits are basically what is now being sold by Beta Craft here in the USA. The wheels are almost, if not exactly, identical to the wheels seen on Cub Scout Kits dating from the 80's(two wheel mold generations ago).
Bottom line is that the wheels are very heavy compared to the current BSA wheels, and there is no comparison when it comes to speed....the new wheels will blow them away. So, asking someone the question, as DNA suggested, could give you a huge competitive advantage. You can easily purchase a few sets of BSA wheels online and have them shipped to you, or buy the DD4H wheels. If they tell you that "parallel BSA" means that you can use ANY wheels marked "BSA", then the new wheels are best. If, by "parallel", they are referring to the BSA wheels similar to what you already have (1980's vintage), then you are out of luck and must do your best to get those wheels running their best.
Finally, while there has been a lot of discussion here about wheels and axles (which, of course, is important), there isn't a mention of wheel location and canted rear wheels. From the rules, it appears that drilling your own holes is allowed, which means that you can also set your own wheel base. Therefore, the easiest thing to do would be to get a pre-drilled wood block from DD4H with a "Street Pro" wheel base. The rear wheels will be as far back as is allowed, and they will be properly canted. If you are forced to use the wheels given, then proper setup of the axle positions and drill angles will give you a big jump in speed.
O.R.
9 Only silicone type lubricants can be used. *Graphite or oils are not permitted*
THIS INCLUDES if you have used graphite on the car at any point in time
since construction. While you may argue that you’re not using graphite on the
day of our race, the amount already embedded in your wheels and axles will give
that car an unfair advantage over those obeying the rules. Please, play fair, it’s
about the youth, and not damaging the track. ********************************** This is a poorly written rule. They could change it to " Only DRY silicone lubricants can be used"- which is still poor, or "ONLY DRY lubricants can be used excluding graphite.", which is what they probably mean if they thought about it. The only way you get a dry silicone lube is to first spray or dip on a liquid and let it dry leaving the silicone behind. Many of these sprays will melt your wheels, so keep it away until very dry. (15 min.) JIG-A-Loo is made in Canada and will be very fast, but let it dry. A gazillion silicon sprays will still leave wet silicone because in most applications, silicone is an oil., So if you use a "wet" silicone lube, you are OK for some of the rule but not OK on the oil part. If your car is dripping with silicone "oil"- I'm sure you get failed at inspect. If the amount of "oil" is so thin that it is undetectable, you would pass inspection, you would be using a silicone lube, but you might still be violating the letter of the law because it does not totally dry and remains an oil- except they did not SAY dry.
Blue thunder from John is a "DRY" lube.
Both Jig a loo and Blue Thunder work a lot better if the wheel is properly prepared and a few drops of DD4H's Krytox mixture is used. After a few runs and wiping away any excess "oil" from the Krytox you have what most of us would consider to be a DRY lube system compared to the WD-40 type Wet systems.
THIS INCLUDES if you have used graphite on the car at any point in time
since construction. While you may argue that you’re not using graphite on the
day of our race, the amount already embedded in your wheels and axles will give
that car an unfair advantage over those obeying the rules. Please, play fair, it’s
about the youth, and not damaging the track. ********************************** This is a poorly written rule. They could change it to " Only DRY silicone lubricants can be used"- which is still poor, or "ONLY DRY lubricants can be used excluding graphite.", which is what they probably mean if they thought about it. The only way you get a dry silicone lube is to first spray or dip on a liquid and let it dry leaving the silicone behind. Many of these sprays will melt your wheels, so keep it away until very dry. (15 min.) JIG-A-Loo is made in Canada and will be very fast, but let it dry. A gazillion silicon sprays will still leave wet silicone because in most applications, silicone is an oil., So if you use a "wet" silicone lube, you are OK for some of the rule but not OK on the oil part. If your car is dripping with silicone "oil"- I'm sure you get failed at inspect. If the amount of "oil" is so thin that it is undetectable, you would pass inspection, you would be using a silicone lube, but you might still be violating the letter of the law because it does not totally dry and remains an oil- except they did not SAY dry.
Blue thunder from John is a "DRY" lube.
Both Jig a loo and Blue Thunder work a lot better if the wheel is properly prepared and a few drops of DD4H's Krytox mixture is used. After a few runs and wiping away any excess "oil" from the Krytox you have what most of us would consider to be a DRY lube system compared to the WD-40 type Wet systems.
Heidi, if you can't get an official to tell you for sure if you can use BSA (US made, not the Chinese made Revell) wheels, then I would suggest sorting through some number of the Canadian wheels and preparing those. You can always prepare both sets of wheels and make the switch if you fail inspection. You would want to get there early so you could go lube the backup set, make the replacement and make sure your alignment is still good if needed. (You could even have two cars, with one the more strict interpretation as a backup.) What you obviously can't do is to take the risk of having your child not race. Unfortunately you have probably put more effort into understanding the rules than some people put into writing them. That's a problem with volunteer organizations. I would also warn, don't be surprised that inconsistent inspection goes along with un-clear rules.
Probably the most speed benefiting advice given here (buying new wood from DD4H that was pre-drilled for rail riding on 3-wheels) would seem to be illegal by your rule about using wood, nails and wheels from the kit (though this is where the contradiction comes in with allowance on "parallel USA wheels). The reason for this is that alignment is VERY important and the pre-drilled wood block would give you a fast setup, only requiring you to bend one (rail riding) front axle. The rear axle holes would already being properly canted (angled) and the remaining front axle hole would be raised so that the wheel would not touch the track. It takes both good tools and time to come close on your own with your wood. Not sure how much time you have.
It seems to me that you have a pretty well shaped car, are well into axle prep, but haven't talked about wheel bore (center) prep. That is another area for big speed advantages beyond what was stated before (unless I missed seeing it). Finally a good amount of polish and lube around the points of contact will be needed. With well prepped parts, good weight placement (3/4"-7/8" for your standard wheel base depending on the other items), proper lube and spot on alignment, your kids will do exceptionally well.
A lot amount of the basic info (less the rail riding part) is in several publications, such as David Meade's Speed Secret's book. Derby Monkey has a very basic short book on Rail Riding that they give away free with orders and I am sure more are out there. A site with a lot more basic info, and a fair bit on rail riding basics, is here: http://www.derbytalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=2460
Hopefully this fills in some of the spaces between the good advice others have given already. Hope you and your kids havea lot of fun doing this, that's the real goal !!
Probably the most speed benefiting advice given here (buying new wood from DD4H that was pre-drilled for rail riding on 3-wheels) would seem to be illegal by your rule about using wood, nails and wheels from the kit (though this is where the contradiction comes in with allowance on "parallel USA wheels). The reason for this is that alignment is VERY important and the pre-drilled wood block would give you a fast setup, only requiring you to bend one (rail riding) front axle. The rear axle holes would already being properly canted (angled) and the remaining front axle hole would be raised so that the wheel would not touch the track. It takes both good tools and time to come close on your own with your wood. Not sure how much time you have.
It seems to me that you have a pretty well shaped car, are well into axle prep, but haven't talked about wheel bore (center) prep. That is another area for big speed advantages beyond what was stated before (unless I missed seeing it). Finally a good amount of polish and lube around the points of contact will be needed. With well prepped parts, good weight placement (3/4"-7/8" for your standard wheel base depending on the other items), proper lube and spot on alignment, your kids will do exceptionally well.
A lot amount of the basic info (less the rail riding part) is in several publications, such as David Meade's Speed Secret's book. Derby Monkey has a very basic short book on Rail Riding that they give away free with orders and I am sure more are out there. A site with a lot more basic info, and a fair bit on rail riding basics, is here: http://www.derbytalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=2460
Hopefully this fills in some of the spaces between the good advice others have given already. Hope you and your kids havea lot of fun doing this, that's the real goal !!
Look up tunning board post. The car is steered by one front tire. The other is carried up of the track for less fiction. You must set the drift or the turn of the car so it rides the rail all the way down the track.
- Nov 24, 2011
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heidi said:You guys are the best! Thank you all for this amazing help
Questions:
1) How do you bend the DFW using a Dremel and a file? (I read in someone's post)
2) What should our Steer be on an old wooden track?
Heidi
You chuck the axle in the dremel and use a round needle file to grind a groove in the axle. Put the wheel on the axle and push it up against the axle head. Use a sharpie to mark the axle right around where the edge of the wheel hub is. Thats where you grind your groove. Remove about 50% of the material. Stick the pointy end of the axle in a vice so the groove is just sticking out. Use a standard screw driver blade and place it in the groove, tap on it with a hammer until you have a 5+ degree bend in it. That axle will be you steering axle to adjust the steer of the car.
- Nov 24, 2011
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I have done that too, don't feel bad. You have to have a round radius cut, if it's sharp it will snap off. Tap lightly, use some junk axles to practice with. Oh, and after you make the round radius cut polish the axle while it's still straight, then bend it.
so we bent the front axle
we tried it without weight (we're building new cars) and it wasn't treading
figured we needed weight and now it is tracking
now we are tracking 1 1/2 inches from the centre line on our treadmill
haven't done a board test yet
*however, the 2 1/2 degree cant on the back axles is barely noticeable
*the back wheels are not riding the nail heads like they should, does this mean there is not enough cant?
we tried it without weight (we're building new cars) and it wasn't treading
figured we needed weight and now it is tracking
now we are tracking 1 1/2 inches from the centre line on our treadmill
haven't done a board test yet
*however, the 2 1/2 degree cant on the back axles is barely noticeable
*the back wheels are not riding the nail heads like they should, does this mean there is not enough cant?
- Nov 24, 2011
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Keep your car off the treadmill. Where did this idea come from? It really doesn't accomplish anything except screw up your car.
This is just a practice car. As of 2 days ago we hadn't even heard of the terms "cant", or "rail riding". This is our 1st attempt at making a car with these techniques that you guys were awesome in supplying us on this incredible forum. It has a 3/4" com, the rear wheels measures at 5/32" on rear, 4/36" on raised wheel, 3/36" on DFW, 2/12" cant on rear wheels (we do not think this is enough as the wheels are not riding on the outsides of the nailheads), 140 grams is the weight, the Steer on the test board (not treadmill) 5" over 5', is this good? as we will be racing on a 35' wood race track. Later this week we will be testing against our fastest to car to get the timing.
Having the wheel move out to the axle head is more related to having the axle hole's drilled perfectly so there is no toe in/out (assuming you drilled canted - or do you have canted axles in the rear ?). Canting helps the wheels go to the axle head, but if the axles are trying to 'steer', than they will go to the body.
Either way you built it, you should be able to pick up the front of the car at a modest angle while the rear wheels roll. Push the wheels to the axle head and roll the car forward and back. The rear wheels should stay OUT at the axle head. If they go to the body in either direction their is a problem with axle drilling/alignment. Another check from a long time ago is to run the car at a steep angle without front wheels after putting smooth tape on the bottom of the front of the car. The car should slide forward relatively straight and then again the wheels should stay out at the axle head (most important). Increase the slope or add weight to the back of the car until the car slides if that is a problem.
My buddy Sporty has a video of this on that DT site. These simple alignment tests are so important that we don't complete the building of cars that flunk this test.
Either way you built it, you should be able to pick up the front of the car at a modest angle while the rear wheels roll. Push the wheels to the axle head and roll the car forward and back. The rear wheels should stay OUT at the axle head. If they go to the body in either direction their is a problem with axle drilling/alignment. Another check from a long time ago is to run the car at a steep angle without front wheels after putting smooth tape on the bottom of the front of the car. The car should slide forward relatively straight and then again the wheels should stay out at the axle head (most important). Increase the slope or add weight to the back of the car until the car slides if that is a problem.
My buddy Sporty has a video of this on that DT site. These simple alignment tests are so important that we don't complete the building of cars that flunk this test.
Here was the response for the BSA wheels:
So the standard Wheels that come in the BSA Pinewood Derby kit are fine. I was also informed that the coloured wheels are acceptable too, but the “Speed Wheels” and Axels that are available in the USA are not allowed.
Can anyone explain this to me as we only have one set available up here. I would assume the "speed wheels" are what you guys are using that are super thin.
Yeah, we can get a set of pink wheels for my daughter's car. I have to admit I was a bit envious when I saw Brian's daughter's car with them.
So the standard Wheels that come in the BSA Pinewood Derby kit are fine. I was also informed that the coloured wheels are acceptable too, but the “Speed Wheels” and Axels that are available in the USA are not allowed.
Can anyone explain this to me as we only have one set available up here. I would assume the "speed wheels" are what you guys are using that are super thin.
Yeah, we can get a set of pink wheels for my daughter's car. I have to admit I was a bit envious when I saw Brian's daughter's car with them.
