I need help

[BlewBYu]

My son has finished his 3rd year of pinewood derby racing. We had the second fastest car (again). The winner has won every year, and only has one more year left as he is a year older than my son. After the race, the Dad let us know that we weren't in his league. (not in an ugly way, but it is still irksome). We ran a 3.16 avg on a 42 foot track. The car that was faster ran a 3.08 average. Needless to say, he beat us by a decent margin. I really thought we would beat him this year. I am hoping to get a car to go below 3.0 and beat this guy. Here are some things we did to the car:

body
weighed in at 11.4g before paint and wheels/ axles
weighted with tungsten canopy and tungsten putty to make it EXACTLY 5.04 oz that registered 5.0
The COG was 1 inch in front of rear axles

rode on 3 wheels
made an attempt to align the wheels/ axles (rail-rider)

Wheels:
I used a matching set of number 2 wheels (are these from a good mold/which ones are the numbers to look for?)
shaved the outer tread, but not lathed
shaved the inner tread where the track hits the wheels
coned the hub
shaved the outer hub
used 220, 400, 600, and 1000 sandpaper for each step w/ water
bores, hubs, and inner/ outer tread were polished

AXELS:
Did not cut a groove into the axles
chamfered the axle head
removed the burrs
started at 400 and went to 12000 polishing the axles. Spent 1 minute at each grit
bent the axles at 2.5 for back and 1.5 for front
used graphite and ran 25 runs to break in graphite (no wet lubricant).

I know there so many variables, but I am a newbie (as far as trying to put together a serious car) and would appreciate all the help I can get. Someone mentioned using Pledge furniture polish, but I am not familiar with that. If there are other things you can think of, please tell me. I think I'll need a car that runs around a 3.0 to win next year. Is this "too far down the road" from where I am? The good thing is I have a year to get ready.

 

[B_Regal Racing]

This will get you going -

Start with good parts:
http://www.shop.derbydad4hire.com/The-Dynasty-BASX-set-of-4-wheels-W-BASX.htm
http://www.shop.derbydad4hire.com/The-Dynasty-92X-Pro-Axle-with-BSA-Point-A-D92BSAG.htm
http://www.shop.derbydad4hire.com/Premium-SSG-Sugar-Pine-Block-SSG1-2.htm
http://www.shop.derbydad4hire.com/Tungsten-Cubes-S-04.htm

Optional:
http://www.shop.derbydad4hire.com/Dynasty-High-Performance-GEE-Fenders-GEE-F.htm
http://www.shop.derbydad4hire.com/Down4Derby-Lead-Aero-Weights-w-LWW.htm

Consolidated answers:
http://www.shop.derbydad4hire.com/2010-Nationals-Workshop-on-DVD-Unlock-The-OIL-SECRETS-v-2010N.htm
http://5kidsracing.webs.com/
http://www.pinewoodderbyonline.com/post/keys-to-win-from-the-pinewood-derby-king-5782181?pid=1272943640#post1272943640

Send a car in and race with us. If you want to learn how to "box", you need to start training.

 

[TRE]

stop bending the rear axles to start with

 

[Kinser Racing]

If you really, really want to beat this guy, start asking questions and start sending cars in to race. This is the NPWDRL (National Pinewood Derby Racing League). I can almost guarantee that if you race with us until next season, you will hand it to him! /images/boards/smilies/thumb.gif

 

[Chump Change Racing]

Blewbyu I have a treadmill I'll sale you CHEAP.... Hahaha!! Just ribbing you.. Seriously though you have definitely found the right place to make your cars go FAST.. Sense I have found this site my boys have won 1st and 3rd two years in a row..

 

[Obsessedderbydad]

First off I'd tell the guy that, "We may not be in Your, league, but my son did his best with his car and I'm proud of him". Then I'd invite him to the NPDRL where we can show him the only league he's in is beating 10 year old scouts.

Now, to help you with your car. You came to the right place and doing research here will help you destroy anything that guy can make. Every answer you're looking for can be found in this forum, but I'll try to help with what I can for now on here. Help is in red.

body
weighed in at 11.4g before paint and wheels/ axles- Perfect for a scout race
weighted with tungsten canopy and tungsten putty to make it EXACTLY 5.04 oz that registered 5.0- Weighing in at or a little over 5oz is where you always should be. Not a fan of the canopy, invest in cubes, PUMA or D4D weights for better results.
The COG was 1 inch in front of rear axles- Try to get this around 1/2" - 3/4" for faster times. 3/4" should be fine for scout racing.

rode on 3 wheels- Always
made an attempt to align the wheels/ axles (rail-rider)

Only if you have to.

Wheels:
I used a matching set of number 2 wheels (are these from a good mold/which ones are the numbers to look for?) Mold match is all you need to worry about for scout racing. Other racers have preferences, but nothing to worry too much about for scout racing.
shaved the outer tread, but not lathed- B Regal is correct, BASX, Cheetah's or any wheel john sells as long as they're legal for your scout race rules. Typically BASX are the legal ones.
shaved the inner tread where the track hits the wheels- read above
coned the hub
shaved the outer hub
used 220, 400, 600, and 1000 sandpaper for each step w/ water- read above
bores, hubs, and inner/ outer tread were polished- explain your prep process. There's a ton of threads about wheel prep for graphite if you search and read. In short, Wal-greens Q-tip stalk with Novus 2 or other polishing agent into wheel bore on slow rotation for about 20 turns, clean with alcohol (not beer) and dry, apply "red rocket" or other type of wax with a non-scratch applicator (john sells all this), let dry (at least 20 min), polish clean with non-scratch applicator and blow clean with air, wash bore with a car wash soap that doesnt remove wax, air dry, "burnish" axle bore with graphite using a polished axle or small polished drill bit (non-cutting end).

AXELS:
Did not cut a groove into the axles-Dont have to.
chamfered the axle head- yay
removed the burrs-a must
started at 400 and went to 12000 polishing the axles. Spent 1 minute at each grit- too much time on each axle. If you start at 400, dont go longer than 10 seconds. If you dont buy john's 92's or 92X, de-bur with a file, start at 600-7000 or whatever, haven't seen much if any change over 7000 grit. 10 seconds for heavier grit and 15 seconds around 1500 grit. After that polish with brasso, KISS (from john) or other type of polish then spray with Pledge and let dry.
bent the axles at 2.5 for back and 1.5 for front

Only if you have to. Buy the "block" from John (easy), Ian's (Goat Boy) axle drilling block (easier), or buy a pre-drilled block from john (easiest). You'll get your rears cant'd with any of those options and not have to worry about axle alignment because your axles are bent.
used graphite and ran 25 runs to break in graphite (no wet lubricant). If you do wheel prep like I stated, you'll only have to spin the wheels a little while and that's it. John's graphite is the best, I've tried them all. My sons car had it's fastest and most consistent times runs 9-12 with john's graphite.

 

[Obsessedderbydad]

Blewbyu I have a treadmill I sale you CHEAP.... Hahaha!! Just ribbing you.. Seriously though you have definitely found the right place to make your cars go FAST.. Sense I have found this site my boys have won 1st and 3rd tow years in a row..

Oh.... he's got jokes...

 

[Chump Change Racing]

Good to see you are building again ODD!!! Can't wait to see them run!!/images/boards/smilies/wink.gif/images/boards/smilies/wink.gif

 

[BlewBYu]

I appreciate all the help, guys. I guess we all have to start at square one, and there is so much to know. I'm very much interested in joining the racing league, but I've got a lot to learn first. Is there a beginner's class to start with? What time on an aluminum track do I need to be competitive?

 

[Chump Change Racing]

BASX amateur is a good place to start and make your first goal to go sub 3.00.

 

[Obsessedderbydad]

There's an amatuer BASX and street stock class. The only time you have to worry about beating is your time from the previous month. It's about having fun and enjoying the hobby you obviously love. You'll learn a long the way, get pissed, rant, rave, cry... wait that was me. All in all do research on here and ask questions, build a car, send it in and build and improve off of that. That's the only way you'll get better.

 

[Kinser Racing]

The only thing I would change in ObsessedDD's post is: Never bend the rear axles and always groove your axles for graphite. /images/boards/smilies/wave.gif

 

[Obsessedderbydad]

Some day I will be as smart as you.

 

[Kinser Racing]

Some day I will be as smart as you.

You already have me beat bud! /images/boards/smilies/thumb.gif It's just my experience.

 

[Obsessedderbydad]

Not beat until I pass you on the track... Someday... Someday...

 

[quadad]

BlewBYu - You've got some real good advice here. If you son wants to go faster ditch the canopy and get the weight low with a COM as suggested. Drill the cant in the rears as suggested and read here about the extremely easy way to put a slot, at least on your DFW axle. If you have a track to test on practice using some fenders also. You need them for those wide wheels. Do all the above and run here a bit and next year that other car won't be in the pictures of your son's car crossing the finish line alone.

 

[Boydog]

if you follow these tips, you will go under 3.00....

 

[ngyoung]

I would abandon shaving your wheels yourself without a way to verify that you are improving run out. You have the right idea for axle polishing but made a common mistake of going too aggressive with your time frame. Going that long greatly reduces your axle diameter which creates more slop in the wheel bore.

Check out 5kidsracing.webs.com there is a scout workshop section that covers most of the basics for axle and wheel prep most here use.

Do you have access to a drill press? If so get the Silver Bullet. If not I would look at getting a pre-drilled block from DD4H. That using stock axles and wheels prepped properly will still make a car pushing 3sec or less. Having a drill press already the SB is the best bang for your buck. If no press, the predrilled block is, especially if you are only making 1 car for Scouts.

Initial cost was a concern for me. My first purchase before sending in a car was the SB and oil. Followed the prep info digging through the forums and 5kids site. For polish and wax I used some locally found products recommended from here also, novus2 brasso, and liquid glass. I personally ran a 3.02 my first entry in NPWDRL using stock axles and wheels. Axles weren't grooved and wheels were full weight with the double step still intact.

I do encourage you to join the league though. It is a fun hobby and practice makes perfect. It's not easy getting good at anything if you only do it once a year.