Inspection committee

[Boydog]

I have been asked to serve on an inspection committee tomorrow for the council race. How can you tell if a wheel has been lightened without taking it off the car and weighing it? Most scales won't weight less than grams anyway...
I think I can look ant the inside of the tread area and inspect it with a light and find the extremely lightened wheels, but how do you teach the rest of the committee in 10 minutes what to look for?

Thanks'

 

[Rocket car]

I have been asked to serve on an inspection committee tomorrow for the council race. How can you tell if a wheel has been lightened without taking it off the car and weighing it? Most scales won't weight less than grams anyway...
I think I can look ant the inside of the tread area and inspect it with a light and find the extremely lightened wheels, but how do you teach the rest of the committee in 10 minutes what to look for?

Thanks'

At least John's wheels typically have a lip on the inside of the wheel near the beveled edge( the part closed to the car)

 

[LightninBoy]

The best thing is for you to man the wheel inspection station.

The next best thing to do is have examples others can use for comparison. Have examples of a Legal wheel, a 2.0g wheel (+ a Cheetah cut wheel), and a more aggressively lightened wheel.

Some digital calipers can help too. They can be used to test the tread thickness as the lightened wheels will have much thinner thread. But again, unless you have a baseline with a legal wheel to go on this wouldn't be helpful. Also, I wouldn't use the calipers unless there is some doubt based on visual inspection as I don't like to touch the wheels unless I have to.

The first time I did this for a district race I was nervous about this too. But it really isn't hard. Most wheels I could tell at a glance weren't touched. Others I could recognize what they were (DD4H Rages, Evo's R170s/160s, etc. ) and knew they were ok (for our rules).

 

[Vitamin K]

Make sure you explain to the race organizers that you're taking the job seriously, and won't be waving anything past in the name of convenience or sympathy. And make sure that they're gonna back up your rulings, too. Nothing worse than having rules on the books and seeing them ignored at check-in time.

Oh, and have tubes of stock wheels onhand, so that people who get busted have an option if they want to go ahead and race.

 

[Redstone Racing]

Not that this will help you tomorrow...but our pack/district started using the Wheel Go/No-Go Gauge from Max-V a couple years ago. This sped up the tech-in process tremendously. It also allowed someone with zero experience to man the tech-in station. Yes, an experienced person like DD4H you can still remove enough material from the inside to get a 1.8g - 2.0g wheel even with a 1.18" H and .360" width. However, it was an easy way to apply the same rule to all cars when checking wheels.

For tomorrow it may be helpful to check and see if the double step has been removed. Not all, but most modified wheels will have this done. Even if removing the double step is allowed, if you see it's not there you may want to take a closer look.

Good Luck!

 

[Kinser Racing]

My opinion: "Don't be a Zealot" like some would suggest. Let the boys race.

 

[Vitamin K]

My opinion: "Don't be a Zealot" like some would suggest. Let the boys race.

Okay, what follows is my personal opinion on interpreting race ethics, so nobody get bent out of shape.

In my opinion:

- The amount of leniency you have regarding wheels is something you have to decide when you write the rules. Once you've written the rules, however, you have a duty to see that they are followed. If you don't think you can enforce a rule, don't put it in.

- Letting illegal wheels get through inspection not only rewards cheaters, it also punishes the honest people! If you're in inspector, would you want to stand in front of a dad and his boy as he tells you that he learned that the winner had illegal mods, and that he and his boy stuck to the letter of the rules and ended up outside of the winning circle? I wouldn't.

FWIW, that's why you bring extra (legal) wheels. If the boys really wanna race, it's up to their dads to suck it up and run wheels that are legal. Nobody has to refuse the offered wheels. If they want to punish their kids by refusing, that's their deal, not yours.

 

[Kinser Racing]

My opinion: "Don't be a Zealot" like some would suggest. Let the boys race.

Okay, what follows is my personal opinion on interpreting race ethics, so nobody get bent out of shape.

In my opinion:

- The amount of leniency you have regarding wheels is something you have to decide when you write the rules. Once you've written the rules, however, you have a duty to see that they are followed. If you don't think you can enforce a rule, don't put it in.

- Letting illegal wheels get through inspection not only rewards cheaters, it also punishes the honest people! If you're in inspector, would you want to stand in front of a dad and his boy as he tells you that he learned that the winner had illegal mods, and that he and his boy stuck to the letter of the rules and ended up outside of the winning circle? I wouldn't.

FWIW, that's why you bring extra (legal) wheels. If the boys really wanna race, it's up to their dads to suck it up and run wheels that are legal. Nobody has to refuse the offered wheels. If they want to punish their kids by refusing, that's their deal, not yours.

Don't forget your .001 gram scale and your .0001 micrometer. That's what your first post sounded like.

I'm not suggesting to "let" anyone cheat. I'm suggesting showing some understanding. Sometimes rules are vague. i.e. Under your previous post it seems you would disqualify a car that had three wheels without a rule stating four were required because another rule says that there must be 1 3/4" between the wheels.

 

[Vitamin K]

Don't forget your .001 gram scale and your .0001 micrometer. That's what your first post sounded like.

I'm not suggesting to "let" anyone cheat. I'm suggesting showing some understanding. Sometimes rules are vague. i.e. Under your previous post it seems you would disqualify a car that had three wheels without a rule stating four were required because another rule says that there must be 1 3/4" between the wheels.

Hmm, wasn't my intention to convey that. What I have in mind is more akin to something I saw on Facebook...some car with razor cut wheels got past inspection, and after the race was over, they asked the race committee if that was legal, and the committee was all "well, not really", but clearly seemed to want to let bygones be bygones.

My frustration with a lot of derby inspections is that they tend to err more heavily on "get it over with so we can get racing", rather than actually checking to make sure that the rules are being followed. Since disputes slow things down, they tend to shy away from actually calling out questionable items.

 

[Kinser Racing]

It's all good. I understand where you're coming from and I think you understand where I'm coming from. /images/boards/smilies/thumb.gif

 

[KTMracer]

Honestly, I'm with Kinser on this. Maybe I'm even more lenient than Kinser. It's a scout race. The trophy is going to be lost in year, the car will probably end up at goodwill. Only the memory of building a car with with his dad (or mom) will remain. Our rules this year were fairly strict. So, rather than trying to creatively interpret them we just built a better car. Better alignment, better prep, etc. When we showed up the car in front of ours clearly had an extended wheelbase. My first thought was "Hey! That's cheating!" But then I realized I'd be ruining that kids day for what may end up to be a few mm's of advantage. Let it slide! If somebody shows up with razors, then hand them a tube of wheels and tell them to save the razors for the dads race. Most of the advantage of the speed parts are wasted in scouts. If someone has lathed wheels they probably came from derby worx and were installed 4 on the ground in the BSA grooves. This isn't NPWDRL. The better builder almost always wins regardless of parts. If you end up taking second to someone who you know cheated, then walk home knowing you were a winner. They're going home knowing they cheated. The only difference is a $5 piece of plastic.

 

[BulldogRacing]

Awesome post KTM

 

[Boydog]

Keep the suggestions coming. Taking notes for next year....

 

[KTMracer]

Thanks Bulldog!

 

[Falcon777]

Real easy ......... First, after looking at a lot of cars, those pushing the limits will pop out at you. For instance, our Council race had a weight limit of 2.5 grams with all lettering intact both inside and out. Now do some homework. Buy an inexpensive digital caliper from Harbor Freight and measure the thickness of a stock wheel from outer surface to the inner surface. I forgot the exact number but I believe it is around 1.87mm for a 2.6 gram standard, untouched BSA USA wheel. Take a 2.0 gram wheel and measure it as well. I believe it is around 1mm or so. Find the average of both figures so a 2.3 gram wheel should have a thickness of no less than around 1.44mm. Take a few more averages and setup a numerical table showing the correlation between tread thickness and weight. Have this mathematical table and your trusty calipers available at your inspection station. So when every knucklehead who is pushing the limits comes to the inspection table with a wheel thickness of 1 mm insisting that the wheel is stock because the lettering is intact both inside and out, you can easily show them via a caliper measurement and your chart that no matter what, the wheel is not stock and weighs 2.0 grams instead of the legal limit of 2.3 grams or what ever your weight limit and equivalent thickness is. The calipers do not lie and shuts up a lot of really obnoxious parents. It will work like a charm. We also give violators the option of racing with no chance of podium positions or changing their wheels which we provide - they change their wheels. Bottom line, they know they got caught. One other note, just because a wheel may look like a completely stock 2.6 gram BSA wheel, it may not be. Some vendors lathe the inside of the wheel while not touching the outer rim at all so it "appears" legal when it is not. Keep a good look out!!

 

[LightninBoy]

One other note, just because a wheel may look like a completely stock 2.6 gram BSA wheel, it may not be. Some vendors lathe the inside of the wheel while not touching the outer rim at all so it "appears" legal when it is not. Keep a good look out!!

I actually find those are the easiest to spot (if you know to look for it) because it leaves a distinct ridge just inside the wheel.

 

[Mojo Racing]

Okay, so I am wondering.... We all know the Scout Oath "On my honor..."

But since there are a number of scouts who are not getting to work on their cars as much as they should, and fathers don't have to recite the oath...

What is the general consensus in her about a post race inspection for trophy spots? Say a car finishes top three... take out two axles and wheels for post race inspection. They do it in NASCAR, why not PWD? The car has to pass post race inspection before trophies are handed out.

Put it specifically in the rules that this will occur, so there is no question.

Just a thought...

Comments????

 

[Falcon777]

Agree wholeheartedly with Kinser and KTMRacer. Three of us were put in place to establish rules for the entire Council - not just the packs and districts. The Council wanted everything standardized. So know what we did - we relaxed everything. We wanted to take all the nick picking, arguments, and fighting out of the race events. So we opened it all up - allowed any wheel base, any axle, any prep to include oil. Since so many were cheating anyway, we opened up the goodies to everyone but drew the line on wheels and matched sets. We felt that professionally matched, prepped 2.0 gram wheels costing over $70 economically and performance wise would give an unfair advantage to only those who could afford it. We wanted everyone racing similar wheels (see post above). But the other stuff, at the scout level, doesn't mean squat. The moral of the story, the top three Council winners last year all used box BSA USA wheels, all unmatched, no sanding or lathing, absolutely virgin wheels WITH BSA zinc axles beating everyone with expensive aftermarket parts. This year, the same winner only he used BSA SS axles which were now legal. The funny thing, last years car was faster with the zinc axles. As KTMRACER said, pay more attention to prep, weight, and setup. That is where races are won and lost. Just obey the rules and teach your kids to win with dignity.

 

[Falcon777]

Mojo ....... Honestly, with the exception of wheels, none of the stuff really matters at the scout level. Once we relaxed the rules as mentioned above, everything was so much easier. And the winners used stock wheels and axles last year and this year too with the exception of BSA SS axles which turned out to be slower than last years car. If you want to implement a change, open up your rules - guys are using the stuff anyway so let those honest scouts do the same. But with wheels, that is the only place I would draw the line.

 

[LightninBoy]

Okay, so I am wondering.... We all know the Scout Oath "On my honor..."

But since there are a number of scouts who are not getting to work on their cars as much as they should, and fathers don't have to recite the oath...

What is the general consensus in her about a post race inspection for trophy spots? Say a car finishes top three... take out two axles and wheels for post race inspection. They do it in NASCAR, why not PWD? The car has to pass post race inspection before trophies are handed out.

Put it specifically in the rules that this will occur, so there is no question.

Just a thought...

Comments????

Please don't do teardown inspections after the race. Do you really want to tell a kid, after he's won and all excited, that he's disqualified? It may be totally warranted, but its just not a situation anybody wants.

Better to write the rules so that they can be enforced at check in. If that means allowing aftermarket axles ... so be it.