Krytox 100 discontinued?

[ironband]

Our pack is graphite only, but parents/former scouts leave their tubes of graphite with the pack after they cross over. As a result, there's an enormous box of half used graphite tubes at the derby check in and nobody who doesn't want to pay for graphite has to. It seems to me if you want to allow oil, do it, buy one or two bottles out of the pack budget, leave them at check in, and encourage other families to leave their oil behind when their scouts move on.

The thing I'm wrestling with is that there is an arms race brewing in oil that just isn't there with graphite. The best graphites out there are still less than $10 (DD4H is what, $6.95).

Oil, on the other hand, if we believe DD4H's numbers (and I have no reason not to) has different levels of performance as we move from $10 to $20 to $30 to $35 oil, and the tech continues to progress.

Part of me really wants oil to control the mess and to allow for more consistent running of the cars since our race method puts a lot of runs on them.

But part of me fears that this year's oil is obsolete next year, so the oil the pack buys this year or that is left behind by a family who bridges over is just not good enough anymore.

I'm probably over-thinking it, but when I make the pitch to the pack (and the district) I want to believe what I'm selling.

 

[TRE]

No one asked for anything for free.

Expense is a good reason - I own a business and I totally get it. If the product is expensive to make and doesn't move fast enough, it isn't good business sense to keep it on the shelf since that money would be better used elsewhere.

I didnt say you did but thats what happens

 

[e/o]

Whether you're overthinking probably depends on the nature of your pack. Mine doesn't seem to have any over-aggressive parents looking for rule violations, and of the ~70 cars that race at the derby, at least 65 of them have about ten better places to be looking for speed improvement than what kind of oil they are using. I can't see a lot of families really caring if they have the top of the line oil, and since I know better oil wouldn't make their cars place, I don't care what they're running either. But perhaps in a pack where a larger number of scouts were seriously battling for the top spots, it would be a much tougher call.

 

[Pinewood Outlaw]

Excellent points. This is where I'm having a hard time figuring out what angle to take as our Derby Chair. I want to give people an alternative that is easier and cleaner than graphite. Nyoil may fit that bill, but with such performance differences like you mentioned, I don't want people to worry that they have to spend $35 on a little bottle of oil if they want to be competitive. I agree with you that it can be perceived as "buying" a win, even though most don't understand you still have to do all the prep. Maybe allowing oil just won't be in the cards for us next year and we'll have to wait for a suitable alternative to rise up. Seems like a big void to fill, as some packs even specifically mention Krytox 100 in their rules.

Hey if they scream about cost of the oil and consider it's buying a win then guess they might as well outlaw tungsten weights in your Pack too lol

 

[ironband]

Hey if they scream about cost of the oil and consider it's buying a win then guess they might as well outlaw tungsten weights in your Pack too lol

That's a fair point.

 

[Jimmy & his 2 Kids]

So we race at Church in the Awana Grand Prix and there is also various regionals. The West Michigan Awana GP actually banned graphite and only allows oil. Lol
Go figure.

 

[B_Regal Racing]

If I find Holy Water to be faster than what I have already, no one will have to worry about the expense. I'll buy it all

But in all honesty, if your car is not built correctly, wheels prepped correctly, axles polished correctly, car weighted correctly, car tuned correctly, etc. etc. etc., it will not matter what oil you choose. It took me a long time to figure this out, but it is the truth.

 

[TRE]

If I find Holy Water to be faster than what I have already, no one will have to worry about the expense. I'll buy it all

But in all honesty, if your car is not built correctly, wheels prepped correctly, axles polished correctly, car weighted correctly, car tuned correctly, etc. etc. etc., it will not matter what oil you choose. It took me a long time to figure this out, but it is the truth.

Then if all those things happen you still little luck to get top speed

 

[recraig]

Hey if they scream about cost of the oil and consider it's buying a win then guess they might as well outlaw tungsten weights in your Pack too lol

This is exactly right. Tungsten weight is very expensive compared to lead but if you want to have a car that is competitive you have to use it. I've done workshops for the past three years and every year there is someone complaining about having to spend the money for tungsten weight. I really don't see the issue, other than lack of understanding, with respect to using oil. Candidly, if you look at the number of applications that one can get out of a bottle of oil when used properly, I would bet that it is actually not terribly more expensive than graphite, at least not when compared to the cost differential with weights...

 

[xjarcher]

So we race at Church in the Awana Grand Prix and there is also various regionals. The West Michigan Awana GP actually banned graphite and only allows oil. Lol
Go figure.

Not only oil, we have a paper with alternatives to graphite. The graphite problem is two fold. 1) It's not easy to do properly, most think too much is just right. 2) That philosophy makes a mess out of our tracks and the operators were quite tired of all the clean up. We MAY consider graphite again because of the loss of Krytox, with some STRICT constraints. We did have a graphite car show up in the open division this year. We allowed it to run despite being in violation. Good car, well aligned, ran well, took 5th. Personally I'll never use it again. Too hard and Mrs. XJ really dislikes what it does to everything it touches.

 

[CM02WS6]

For those whose rules prohibit graphite, how do you think your groups will react once Krytox is gone? It seems Krytox is a solid, known quantity: good performance and OK price such that it has become the baseline for comparisons. Options exist up or down along the spectrum of price and performance, where do you think they would go? Or back to graphite???

 

[xjarcher]

For those whose rules prohibit graphite, how do you think your groups will react once Krytox is gone? It seems Krytox is a solid, known quantity: good performance and OK price such that it has become the baseline for comparisons. Options exist up or down along the spectrum of price and performance, where do you think they would go? Or back to graphite???

Here, they will run back to graphite and apply it poorly. That's okay, I have about 15 years worth of krytox and will use it until something better arrives (it will) and still be beating graphite cars by a wide margin. When they ask my secret I say "I don't use graphite"

 

[Chief]

Excellent points. This is where I'm having a hard time figuring out what angle to take as our Derby Chair. I want to give people an alternative that is easier and cleaner than graphite. Nyoil may fit that bill, but with such performance differences like you mentioned, I don't want people to worry that they have to spend $35 on a little bottle of oil if they want to be competitive. I agree with you that it can be perceived as "buying" a win, even though most don't understand you still have to do all the prep. Maybe allowing oil just won't be in the cards for us next year and we'll have to wait for a suitable alternative to rise up. Seems like a big void to fill, as some packs even specifically mention Krytox 100 in their rules.

We re-wrote our rules to say to use any lubricant, as long as it is not ooozing or dripping...it only took one race for everyone to forget about graphite, for the reasons stated, easier, cleaner and most importantly...FASTER. I dont tell people what they should use, I tell them to do some research and experiment. There were no complaints this year and NO CRYING!

 

[xjarcher]

I think we are going to reinstate graphite with the provision that any car car that is shedding lubricant on the track will be DQ'd. I've rewritten some sections regarding wheels and axles and sent them to the rest of the team for their review.

 

[CM02WS6]

We re-wrote our rules to say to use any lubricant, as long as it is not ooozing or dripping...it only took one race for everyone to forget about graphite, for the reasons stated, easier, cleaner and most importantly...FASTER. I dont tell people what they should use, I tell them to do some research and experiment. There were no complaints this year and NO CRYING!

Thanks, I like this suggestion a lot. Was not super comfortable with specifying a certain product name, so this eliminates that concern. I'm going to re-write our draft 2020 rules now to record it!

 

[Jimmy & his 2 Kids]

I think we are going to reinstate graphite with the provision that any car car that is shedding lubricant on the track will be DQ'd. I've rewritten some sections regarding wheels and axles and sent them to the rest of the team for their review.

I am looking forward to hearing how it turns out. Our Awana GP leaders made up the most strict rule set ever eliminating all speed tricks. But also intending to send our fastest to States in April. I told them the rules will limit them to sheer embarrassment only and sent them some of the neighboring region’s rule sets. Including what you and I already chatted about. They then called States Director.. the one you have met I believe and after talking to him who I believe confirmed what I already told them they relaxed most of the limitations and are still not banning oil thankfully.
Definitely looks forward to hearing how your races go on the revised rules once thy are set.
We as a church need to solidify our vision for Awana GP and get with the program. I hope to help them with that for 2020.
Jimmy

 

[xjarcher]

I am looking forward to hearing how it turns out. Our Awana GP leaders made up the most strict rule set ever eliminating all speed tricks. But also intending to send our fastest to States in April. I told them the rules will limit them to sheer embarrassment only and sent them some of the neighboring region’s rule sets. Including what you and I already chatted about. They then called States Director.. the one you have met I believe and after talking to him who I believe confirmed what I already told them they relaxed most of the limitations and are still not banning oil thankfully.
Definitely looks forward to hearing how your races go on the revised rules once thy are set.
We as a church need to solidify our vision for Awana GP and get with the program. I hope to help them with that for 2020.
Jimmy

Oil will not be banned period. Promise. We have no intention of eliminating the fastest, cleanest and easiest lube. It would be nice if people would wake up to the benefits of it and quit using graphite but some think it's still the best thing going Reinstating graphite just lets the graphite crowd use it. HK and I are the two who started the state race. At the state level I'm sure it will stay around.

 

[Jimmy & his 2 Kids]

Oil will not be banned period. Promise. We have no intention of eliminating the fastest, cleanest and easiest lube. It would be nice if people would wake up to the benefits of it and quit using graphite but some think it's still the best thing going Reinstating graphite just lets the graphite crowd use it. HK and I are the two who started the state race. At the state level I'm sure it will stay around.

Oh I meant our church itself. They were trying to eliminate all speed tricks to curb dominance. I was worried our churches individual rules were going to ban it.

 

[xjarcher]

Sounds like they need to have a "Turtle Race" where the goal is to go as slow as possible and still finish!

 

[ironband]

Sounds like they need to have a "Turtle Race" where the goal is to go as slow as possible and still finish!

Nah. Turtle races take too much skill.

What they should do is have the derby but not set up the track. After check in, put all the cars in a bag, shake it up, and randomly draw 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place. Everyone has an equal chance of winning and time and effort play no part!

Seriously, when I see rule sets that say "must use axle slots", "no canting", "cars must not be designed to ride the rail", "four wheels must touch the track", etc, that's what goes through my mind.