Need help canting the holes

[davet]

I'm experimenting with drilling canted rears 2.5 degrees and DFW 5 degrees. First off, I'm not using The Block but not sure it would change the result I'm getting.

REARS: I drilled the rears exactly the same distance up from bottom of the body and using a metal angle finder I get exactly the same cant on both sides with no toe-in or toe-out as measured with angle finder.

FRONTS: I drilled The right front straight and raised as we do each year. The left front is my DFW. I drilled the DFW hole canted at 5 degrees.

The problem I have is that when I put straight axles and wheels in all 4 holes, the car wants settle down onto both fronts evenly and the DFW side (left) rear comes off the table as if it were the raised wheel. To check it further I drilled a straight hole about 3/8" behind the canted DFW hole and installed a straight axle and wheel. The same thing happens, both fronts sits evenly on table on left rear comes of table.

We have not cut our block down at all yet and when I add 12 cubes behind the rear axle the rear wheels sit down flat and my right front raised wheel now sits off the table as it should. Since we'll be shaving down to a thin car is this OK or not? I've double checked the holes many times with angle finder and they seem exactly the same. Once I put the weight on it and the wheels the rears look great, just like I was hoping. The DFW front is just where I think I'd like to start with a slightly bent axle for steer when alignment time comes.

I had a second block so I quick drilled 4 straight holes with right front raised and the car sits as it should.

 

[Kinser Racing]

The same thing happens on all of my cars without weight. It's because your fronts are drilled back further from the front end putting more weight in the front. The NDFW goes down and the opposite rear comes up. You'd really be one up with "The Silver Bullet".

 

[davet]

The same thing happens on all of my cars without weight. It's because your fronts are drilled back further from the front end putting more weight in the front. The NDFW goes down and the opposite rear comes up. You'd really be one up with "The Silver Bullet".

My fronts are only 3/16" back from being as far forward as possible. When I drilled the second car and with last years car also they were in the same spot but drilled straight. It didn't drop like this.

So just put weight on it and run it or go with the straight drilled body and bent axles? We're running stock BSA axles. I drilled a straight hole behind my canted DFW and I'll use it with a straight axle to get my rears aligned and get the car to go straight. Then I'll install the bent DFW axle and set steer.

 

[DerbyDad4Hire]

Just put weight on it.

Remember no wood will be perfectly square.

 

[davet]

Thanks guys. We'll keep building this one.

 

[Kinser Racing]

Just put weight on it. Remember no wood will be perfectly square.

+1

My fronts are only 3/16" back from being as far forward as possible. When I drilled the second car and with last years car also they were in the same spot but drilled straight. It didn't drop like this.

So just put weight on it and run it or go with the straight drilled body and bent axles? We're running stock BSA axles. I drilled a straight hole behind my canted DFW and I'll use it with a straight axle to get my rears aligned and get the car to go straight. Then I'll install the bent DFW axle and set steer.

Please do NOT bend your rear axles we do NOT advocate that here. It's slower! You are welcome to do as you wish but remember: If someone you're racing against comes here and follows this advice they have an excellent chance of beating you.

For the best possible results, purchase the "Silver Bullet". It's the best $40 you'll spend on the Pinewood Derby. If you are just unable to do that you're better off drilling straight holes with straight axles. Every competitive pro racer uses the Silver Bullet or it's equivalent (at almost twice the price). Good luck! /images/boards/smilies/wave.gif

 

[davet]

I know the Block is the ideal tool for this as I read everyone on here using it. We race only scout races and this is our last year so I'm just trying not to spend too much. Last year we bent our axles and did well but this year I was trying to see if I could drill these canted.
I still wonder though how you get the axles in the exact same spot on both sides of the wood with The Block. When I watch John's video it seems like accuracy is only as good as the sharpness of the pencil used to mark the spot.

 

[Chief]

On the other hand, for the cost of the Silver Bullet, and the drill press...I buy mine pre-drilled from DD4H. With that I have no doubt they are perfect.

 

[davet]

If I was building cars for League racing I would not hesitate to buy John's pre-drilled blocks. I'm trying to show my boy how to use the tools we have and how to prep the wheels and axles.

 

[Crash Enburn]

While the Silver Bullet will do a better job of reproducing results every time, I have drilled canted rears using only a second wood block.

Line the block you're drilling carefully on another block, and clamp it on top. Take a drill bit, and tape it lengthwise at the top of the side of the lower block.

Drill Bit Size	Angle
1/16"	2.87°
5/64"	3.6°
3/32"	4.3°
7/64"	5°
1/8"	5.75°
9/64"	6.4°
5/32"	7.2°

From this post: http://www.pinewoodderbyonline.com/post/how-to-drill-axle-holes-without-the-silver-bullet-7141146?pid=1284841353#post1284838256

 

[Kinser Racing]

Here Quicktime shows you how to do it. The long side of the Silver Bullet is up against a fence.

Next the drilling. I use a Proxxon with a X Y table. These cars are going to be a 5 inch wheel base. Got to have the hold straight across from each other.

 

[DerbyDad4Hire]

Dave I know it sounds like everyone is trying to push you to buy the tool. They are doing it because it actually does give the performance that is advertised. I know there are some that will try and find any other way and try to make it sound like it will work the same but the Silver Bullet is made for Pinewood Derby and will give you the best results. The benefit of this board is knowing what you are being told is the highest performing method and ALSO a lot of the time a very simple method. Sure there are many ways to build a pinewood derby car but my goal is to keep everyone here up to date with the most effective and simple way to build a pinewood derby car. Time is money!

To that, it will be evident if the wood block is not dead on square or you had a slight variance when you drilled the holes. The car will steer with the rear wheels and it might be harder to tune. Without good alignment you will be in the hole to start. It used to be easy to win scout derbies but that is simply not the case anymore. This board has created hundreds of very good mentors.

Good luck on your last year and feel free to drop me a line if you need help.

 

[Kinser Racing]

In addition to what DebyDad has said, once you determine the best way to do something it's extremely hard if not impossible to do it in a way that's not as effective. That is truly the case for me. /images/boards/smilies/wave.gif

 

[davet]

Thanks John. I don't doubt that the tool would be easier to use. MOFAST directed us here last year after our Pack race. After reading and studying the posts here we picked up a ton of speed as we progressed to the Council race.

 

[davet]

In addition to what DebyDad has said, once you determine the best way to do something it's extremely hard if not impossible to do it in a way that's not as effective. That is truly the case for me. /images/boards/smilies/wave.gif

Same for me. Bent axles served us well last year at our level of racing but I thought I would experiment a little with the holes. Not confident in the ones I drilled right now because of how it sits.

A while back CYGNUS generously offered to let my boy and I come over and use his Block to drill our axles. He gave me some great advice last year prior to our Council race. We're just trying to get it done ourselves. It won't be the best it could be but if we improve and my boy sees a few different ways of building this thing he might learn something.

 

[davet]

Setting the hole location even with the Silver Bullet tool is still subject to trial and error in order to get both sides exactly the same. Is that correct?

 

[Crash Enburn]

I refer you back to Kinser's post of Quicktime's picture. He uses a fence on his table to ensure that the height of the hole is identical on both sides. His fore-aft distance might be off by thousandths, but the height and angle on both sides should be dead-on.

 

[B_Regal Racing]

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlwQfL0cOiE[/video]

 

[davet]

A phone call to John and what you guys have said here got me checking out the drill job further.

The rears are definitely set up the same. With wheels on and all the way out to heads the wheels ride on the inside edge. This tells me they're canted enough to overcome the bore/axle slop. Both wheels seem to have equal clearance from the table to the outside edge (just enough to see light under the outside edge).

I did like some said and added 17 cubes to the back then I started checking alignment. I installed a straight (polished stock BSA) axle in a straight hole just behind my canted DFW hole. The car ran about 1/4" off center in 48". I installed the straight axle in the canted DFW hole and she repeatedly ran dead straight in 48".

I then installed into the canted DFW hole an axle bent 1.5 degrees and set the mark to the 9 position. She had 7" of steer in 48". I turned the mark to the 7 1/2 position and she ran 4" of steer in 48" repeatedly. This was much less touchy than the steeper bend we ran last year. Do you think this 5 degree hole and slightly bent axle is enough of a cant or should I give the axle a touch more bend?

Any problems jumping out at you guys with this info? First time with canted holes. Thanks.

 

[DerbyDad4Hire]

Let me know how drilling the front works out. The cars I tried this on a few cars and they did weird things.