Need more speed

[Tony_in_NYC]

Hi there. I'm new around here, so I thought I should introduce myself, and I also have a question. My son's car finished .0042 seconds out of third place in our local event. Anyone can enter the district race, so we are entering. I knew nothing about tuning the car to make it a rail rider. I did know it should roll straight. Well, the car does not roll straight. It turns right. Hard. I have not measured it, but it goes to the right fast when rolled down a board. There seems to be a lot of infor about tuning for BestTracks and other center rail tracks, but my races are on a SuperTrack with no center rail. Here is what I have done:
Bore polish
Axle polish
Axles are straight.

Here is a pic:

As you can see, I painted the tires to be more accurate to the movie. We call him Pinewood McQueen. Anyway, how can I best tune for the SuperTrack, and should I get new wheels that are not painted? Will the paint on the wheels make a major difference?
The fastest car of the night clocked a 2.997 and we came in at 3.131 average for 4 runs.
On race night, the axles had been polished to 2500 grit and I used Flitz, a metal polish, and a buffing wheel on a dremel to buff them. They are shiny. I had not polished the bores on race night.
Do you think I can gain the .15 seconds I need to win a top three spot/ beat the fastest car in our pack, or am I wasting my time entering the district races?
Thanks in advance for any help. If you need more info, I am happy to tell you anything I can.
Tony

 

[Kinser Racing]

Welcome to the board. /images/boards/smilies/smile.gif

I believe there are a few different types of cars. Two are awesomely crafted character or artistic cars and cars built for speed. Your's falls into the former category (It is a really cool looking car with a lot of work involved). To run the super track right you would need to build the car for that track, it'll take a lot more than just tuning your current car, we can get into that later if you'd like. You may be able to pick up some speed by getting some new wheels from DerbyDad4Hire.com, and by using a bore polish and final axle polish. Also using oil would make some improvement if you could. A nicer set of axles will give you some speed too. This is all dependent on the rules you have to work with, but it is possible to gain some speed. How much? I don't know for certain.

 

[Tony_in_NYC]

Thanks Kinser. I realize that asking if I could pick up the .15 seconds I need is pretty difficult to answer, and I appreciate you taking the time to reply. I also realize that my car is much more show than go. However, this is a cub scout race, not a super competitive race. I need to get my car to stop going hard to the right. I think I know how to do that from reading here. What kind of modifications would I need to make to run on the SuperTrack? I can order axles and wheels, but they need to pass BSA rules. Mostly, our inspections involve making sure the car fits in the "Go/no Go" box, and looking for visible signs of oil. The race is on Saturday, March 1st, so I have some time to tweak things, but since I have to run this car, I can not build a new one. Also, the bottom of the car is marked, and I had to use it as well. Stock wheel slots had to be used as well. I am not opposed to narrowing the wheel base from right to left, or doing other mods that will not alter the top of the car. The paint I used is a nitrocelulos lacquer, so it needs a little time to fully dry before the races, so I would like to avoid having to touch it up, but I am not opposed to doing a little paint work as well if that is needed. So...where do I begin?

 

[W&K Creations]

I agree with Kinser...

If you can tell us more in depth what the rules allow you to do (or not to do in many cases LOL), what type of parts you have on there now (out of the box stock axels and wheels or axels and wheels from an outside vendor), what type of lubrication does your rules allow (versus what you did use), where the weight in the car is, that might help so people can come up with specific tips that can help get that car faster.

Ive never raced a supertrack where there is no center rail, but I know there are specific posts on the forums that discuss setup ideas and tips for running cars on a supertrack. I think the discussion centered around setting the car up to run as straight as possible versus steering and essentially running along the outside rail and what adjustments to the car would need to be done in either case to try and maximize performance. The link to these to posts are below...one is really short and one is two pages long.

http://www.pinewoodderbyonline.com/post/super-track-council-race-6271253

http://www.pinewoodderbyonline.com/post/tracks-with-no-center-rail-5685397

Hope they help!

WK

 

[Tony_in_NYC]

Those are helpful threads. Thanks!
The rules are:

1.Width shall not exceed 2-3/4 inches.

2. Length shall not exceed 7 inches.

3. Height shall not exceed 3 inches.

4. Weight shall not exceed 5 ounces.

5. Axles, wheels, and body shall be from the materials provided in the kit

(any speed axles, solid axles or Pro-speed wheels will be cause for

elimination).

6. Wheel bearings, washers, and bushings are prohibited.

7. No lubricating oil or liquid lubricant of any kind may be used. Axles may

be lubricated with powdered graphite.

8. No liquid weights may be used including water or Mercury.

9. The car shall not ride on any kind of spring.

10. The car must be free-wheeling, with no starting devices.

11. Axles and wheels must be mounted on original cuts made in provided

wood blank.

My wheels currently run flat. Would canting the wheels add some speed?
I assume adding a steering axle to help the car go straight would also help since it is currently rubbing the side rail pretty hard.
My COM is not ideal. With the stock axle slots, I used the short end of the block as the front, so there is about half an inch in front of the front tires. The COM is an inch in front of the rear wheels. The car is exactly 5.000 oz. I have axle retainers on the car now. Should I remove them and use glue instead? I could then move some more weight to the rear of the car.
Also, the bottom of the car is a gaping whole which I had to hog out to get down to 5 oz. Should I cover it with packing tape to enhance the aerodynamics of the car, or does it not make enough of a difference to matter?

Oh, and which way does the wheel tilt for negative cant vs positive?
Here is a pic of the bottom of the car:

 

[Rocket car]

Start with this http://5kidsracing.webs.com
It will teach you a lot!!!
Yes, cover all cavities

 

[Kinser Racing]

Yes cover the hole. That will help a lot and may pickup some good time right there. I'll ponder on some of the other stuff. I'm sure some others will have some additional input.

 

[Tony_in_NYC]

Thanks for the input. I appreciate your time and look forward to more ideas.
Rocket car, I have been on 5Kids site a lot today and I am learning quite a bit. I should have taken this more seriously, as it seems some other dads in my son's pack already have!

I am going to lose the axle retainers and cover the hole with tape for now.

 

[W&K Creations]

Just initially looking at the rules...

1. seems like you can run the wheels canted so they run on edge. This can reduce tread track friction. But that means pulling the wheels and axels out and redoing the install or even drilling a canted "channel" in the slot, or if you've steady hand just install the axels at an angle (I know some guys can do it by hand but Im all thumbs personally so LOL). The only question would be what direction to cant. The whole idea normally is to cant the rears so they dont ever touch the center guiderail, and cant the front so it both steers and runs along the rail to help reduce instability (wiggles). With a supertrack there is no center rail....just outer rails....the linked posts I had listed earlier will talk specifically about canting for the supertrack and id refer to that if your going to do this.

2. It doesn't say you can't run just 3 wheels touching. So canting or not, id have all 4 wheels on the car but lift one of the front wheels so it doesn't touch the track at all. This reduces friction from one wheel entirely. And if your car is already pulling heavily in one direction, if its due to one of the front wheels being really out of alignment more than the other, you may be able to resolve this to some degree if you lift that one wheel up so it doesn't even touch the track. At that point you only need to see what the remaining "FDW" is doing and adjust there if you need to.

3. Graphite is it it seems. If you can get the polishing kits from John (DD4H) id do that and use it for both axels and wheel bores. If you don't have the time, then polish axels as best you can to a smooth mirror finish and then do a final polish with pledge (yes the wood furniture polish stuff).

4. Wheel bores, polish using a Walgreen (specifically....don't use the Qtip brand) que tip stem, and a bore polish, preferably John's. Once the bore is polished, then apply a wax polish, again preferably John's red rocket bore polish (but legends and novus are also some people have used)...once polished up then burnish graphite into the bores using a fuzzy pipe cleaner or a metal rod rolled in the bore that has been filled with graphite first ala 5 kids or any other way to get that graphite rubbed into the surface and nice and shiny.

5. Burnish graphite into any area of the wheel (EXCEPT the tread surface!) that may contact or rub anywhere on the car body or track (inner and outer hubs for e.g.). Also burnish graphite onto the side body of the car right around where the axels are installed incase the wheel inner hub contacts the body.

That's what I can think of quickly just looking at what you posted and the fact that I don't think as you said you want to fool around with the body and finish by this point in time....

If you are already be doing some of this and it just isn't posted great. Im sure others have ideas as well that can post....and again those earlier links go more in depth about riding on the outside rail than I have any experience with.

On a slightly different note.....MERCURY weighting?? wow!

 

[Tony_in_NYC]

Yes. Mercury has been outlawed as a weight. As have arsenic, strychnine, hemlock and weapons grade plutonium. Go figure! lol

 

[Guest]

Hey Tony,

I am in NYC too.

Where ya at?

Maybe we can grab a beer and talk PWD.

Best,
Joe

 

[Kinser Racing]

I talked to a kid a couple of years ago and he and his dad weighted the car with mercury. Ya, I thought the same thing, wow!

 

[W&K Creations]

now that is truely going beyond the limits LOL!

 

[IAE Racing]

Awesome looking Car Tony! Man I love it. Yes, cover the hole. I have used clear packing tape(light) and sometimes the aluminum foil tape. It sticks better. Your cars steer is coming from an already bent axle OR an axle slot that is not square. This may still work in your favor though setting up for the super track with some modifications. It appears that there is still wood that could be hogged out of the front yet so you could add to the back, although the work-to-gain payoff would be limiting. Your current wheels are awesome looks! Although the paint may have gotten the out of balance. A good set of BASX wheels with a full polish and prep, some BSA Official speed axle would gain slightly also and stay within the rules (depending on how you interpret them). Although, a GOOD set of over the counter wheels and axles fully prepped Sound like you followed the correct step for axle polish -as long as you did not reduce diameter. don't forget to put Pledge on you axles after you polished.

Hopefully, you will find some speed. Either way, it will not be a waste of time entering Districts. The time spent with your son, plus Going and seeing new things will pay dividends in future races.

 

[IAE Racing]

Dang WK you're a fast typer! If you could keep it contained Mercury is fairly dense.

 

[Tony_in_NYC]

Hey Tony,

I am in NYC too.

Where ya at?

Maybe we can grab a beer and talk PWD.

Best,
Joe

I'm always down for a beer. I'm in Brooklyn. How about you?

I have aftermarket wheels, but again, they are painted. Hogging out more wood is not a big problem, but I don't want to go too thin on the outer shell. Really, the main area to remove wood would be the rear, but that would be counter productive. A COG an inch in front of the rear wheels is not bad. Could be better, but its not bad.

I said in my first post that I was going to introduce myself, and I forgot to do that. I have a bit of wood working skills so I am not afraid to modify the axle slots, but couldn't a shim under the point of the nail push the wheel up into the cant that I am looking for? I only need a couple of degrees, right?
Anyway, in my free time, I build guitars. If you are interested in seeing some of my work, here is a link to my website:
http://CostaGuitars.com
I did a guitar giveaway after Hurricane Sandy. I made a veteran a guitar worth about $5,000 for free. Got a little press from it. CBS Radio, a couple of local papers, but mainly I did it to help out a guy who lost everything in the storm. Yeah...I'm a heck of a guy. Handsome as George Clooney too.

I have a day job, but it is a boring sales job.
Thanks for the compliments on the car. My son and I worked really that hard on it. I have to be honest though, the shaping was not bad at all. Plus, aerodynamics play a part in PWD races, and Lightning McQueen is a really fast race car, so I know I am good to go by copying his shape. Lawsuits from Disney/Pixar notwithstanding.
Thanks for all of the assistance. I will be working on some of these mods ASAP.

By the way, why is the treadmill tuning thing frowned upon around here? Seems to make sense to me as a way to see the car go more than a few feet. I am open to hearing why it is not a good way to tune the steering.
Again, thanks!

 

[IAE Racing]

Having done similar to treadmill and learned not to. 1. the treadmill will wear and pit the wheels (making them slower). 2. Unneeded where and tear on your bores (making them slower). It there's a third, someone chime in.

 

[W&K Creations]

I think a COG at 1 inch in front of the rear is fine and if making that lower means messing up that great finish or shape then personally I wouldn't do it. If its easy to do by all means move some weight around but don't go under 3/4 on an inch if you cant tune on a track to make sure your car is still stable while moving the weights.

A shim under the tip of the axel would work just fine as well as installing at an angle and gluing in.

Even just positively canting one of the front wheels (wheel angled down toward the track) might be enough to functionally lift the other front wheel off the track allowing for a 3 wheel running car. If this isn't enough you may need to actually set that wheel higher in the block by drilling a hole at the top of the slots moving that wheel higher and off the track.

In all cases if you make wheel adjustments, being able to role it down the track (best) or at least a nice smooth surface to see what your adjustments are doing is good idea to make sure your car is going in the direction you want it to.

(if I mixed up the direction of positive versus negative cant someone please speak up LOL...I always seem to mess that up as far as what direction the wheel is going!)

 

[Kinser Racing]

Guitars huh! Cool! A couple of us on here are into guitars, myself and Resophonic are the only ones I know of.

The treadmill can not give you an accurate reading on your steer. It's also pretty rough on the car and wheelbores to be specific. It's just not an acceptable substitute for a tuning board. You just can't read what you're doing with it. I hope this helps. Spend some time here and you'll be better off than those who don't. /images/boards/smilies/smile.gif

 

[Guest]

Hey Tony,

I am in NYC too.

Where ya at?

Maybe we can grab a beer and talk PWD.

Best,
Joe

I'm always down for a beer. I'm in Brooklyn. How about you?

I have aftermarket wheels, but again, they are painted. Hogging out more wood is not a big problem, but I don't want to go too thin on the outer shell. Really, the main area to remove wood would be the rear, but that would be counter productive. A COG an inch in front of the rear wheels is not bad. Could be better, but its not bad.

I said in my first post that I was going to introduce myself, and I forgot to do that. I have a bit of wood working skills so I am not afraid to modify the axle slots, but couldn't a shim under the point of the nail push the wheel up into the cant that I am looking for? I only need a couple of degrees, right?
Anyway, in my free time, I build guitars. If you are interested in seeing some of my work, here is a link to my website:
http://CostaGuitars.com
I did a guitar giveaway after Hurricane Sandy. I made a veteran a guitar worth about $5,000 for free. Got a little press from it. CBS Radio, a couple of local papers, but mainly I did it to help out a guy who lost everything in the storm. Yeah...I'm a heck of a guy. Handsome as George Clooney too.

I have a day job, but it is a boring sales job.
Thanks for the compliments on the car. My son and I worked really that hard on it. I have to be honest though, the shaping was not bad at all. Plus, aerodynamics play a part in PWD races, and Lightning McQueen is a really fast race car, so I know I am good to go by copying his shape. Lawsuits from Disney/Pixar notwithstanding.
Thanks for all of the assistance. I will be working on some of these mods ASAP.

By the way, why is the treadmill tuning thing frowned upon around here? Seems to make sense to me as a way to see the car go more than a few feet. I am open to hearing why it is not a good way to tune the steering.
Again, thanks!

That is about the understatement of the year!
The guitar donation was right on. That storm was a b*tch.
Beautiful work with those guitars!
We definitely have to meet up.
I am in Tribecca. Where in Brooklyn?
Turn on your private messaging on this forum.
Best,
Joe