New Org, New Race, New Rules

[Crash Enburn]

I have been moving forward in organizing a Pinewood Grand Prix race for our Trail Life USA troops. I ordered the Max-V kits (thank you for the suggestion, guys), and put together a proposed rule set based largely on the Street Stock rules.

Car Body / Dimensions
Wheel Base: Any
Height: Not to exceed 3″ inches…
Length: Not to exceed 7″ inches…
Width: Not to exceed 2-3/4″ inches…
Weight: Not to exceed 5.0 ounces (143 grams) measured on 1/10th digital scale
Clearance: Must clear center rail (recommend 3/8" clearance)

Additional materials may be added as long as they meet the rules
Other types of materials may be used to construct your own body and/or frame, but axles must be mounted in pine wood
4 Axles & Wheels must be installed to the side of the car body directly across from one another / No more than a 45 degree angle

Track Center Rail Height : 1/4″ inch ( 7mm ) *
Track Center Rail Width : 1 5/8″ inches (4.2 cm) *
* Wheels must clear the outside to outside center rail width measurement

Axles
a. Use the axles included in the kit
b. Axles must have a nail head

Wheels
a. May polished and/or sanded to true the edge of tread, surface and circumference
b. The tread / contact surface must remain flat and parallel to the bore as humanly possible
c. NO CnCing, Lathing, Angling, Reshaping, Canting, Round Crowning, Tapering, H-ing, V-ing, Dishing, the outside of the wheels and/or tread surface
d. Lettering must remain visible on the inside and outside of the wheel.
e. Wheel covers may be used only if entire wheel is visible
f. 7.50mm Minimum Tread Width
g. Wheels must weigh at least 2 grams and a wheel can be removed after the race to be weighed to confirm weight.
h. The wheels can be trued to get to the 2 gram weight but they are not to be cut down intentionally under the weight limit and use foreign material to bring it back to weight.

The following Modifications are not allowed:
a. Starting or finish line devices
b. Electronic or lighting devices
c. Glass or extremely fragile parts
d. Paint that is wet, smudges or extremely sticky
e. Bearings and/or Bushings
f. Wet lubricant that is dripping
g. Sharp objects, sandpaper or abrasives on the bottom of car (We do not want any damage to the rubber stopping pads)
h. Axles and/or wheels attached to any device that mechanically or alters rotation and spin
i. Any part of the car to go beyond the starting peg when staged
j. Propellants

About the only thing I changed was the ability to lathe or CnC (what is that anyway?) the wheels. I do not want the race to be a battle of the pocket-book or the machinist's kid wins.

I contacted the other two troops in town, pointed them to the Max-V kits, and included this proposed rule set. One of the troop leaders is the guy who ran the District race for the Cub Scouts. I clarified the rules in comparison to the local Cub Scout rules:

The main differences between the BSA Sandia District rules and these are: wheelbase is unrestricted, does not have to be four wheels touching and running flat, and lubricants are open (so long as they will not be fouling the track through dripping/spraying.

His response:

I am concerned that you will have a lot of disappointed youth if you leave the designs as open as you state below. This was the reason BSA had a scouter division and open. You may as well eliminate 95% of all scouters as this will usually only result In the same people winning year after year. There are to many youth out there that do not have the resources to make 3-wheeled 45 degree tilted wheels and there frustration will only stop them from competing more than once or twice. I spent many years running PWD for BSA and I have seen what happens when there is not a level field. Please consider this when you start a Derby of your own.

I'm considering my response — under the old Scout rules, my son was 2x District Champion. And it is my intent and hope to have several clinics and handouts to share all the speed secrets. But there are always those boys that don't come or take advantage.

How would you respond?

TIA,
- Eric

(My apologies for the length) /images/boards/smilies/smile.gif

 

[Chief]

IF you build it, they will come

 

[chromegsx]

I wouldn't respond other than to say, it doesn't matter what the rules are, the same people that want to win will always be at the top. You can't please 100% of the people 100% of the time. Move forward the best you know how with the info you do have learn from your mistakes and you will be successful.

 

[TRE]

I wouldn't respond other than to say, it doesn't matter what the rules are, the same people that want to win will always be at the top. You can't please 100% of the people 100% of the time. Move forward the best you know how with the info you do have learn from your mistakes and you will be successful

+1

 

[DerbyDad4Hire]

I wouldn't respond other than to say, it doesn't matter what the rules are, the same people that want to win will always be at the top. You can't please 100% of the people 100% of the time. Move forward the best you know how with the info you do have learn from your mistakes and you will be successful.

Perfect response. The more restrictive the rules, the more the good ones dominate and more cheating occurs.

 

[txchemist]

"Life is hard, it's even harder when your stupid"--John Wayne

News flash- the informed builder will win no matter what the rules unless we play Candy Land to determine the winner. The correct question is how will rules like 4 on the floor no angles change the distribution?
I have real data covering Many years of packs with no rules- loose rules and tight rules. The biggest range is created by tight rules. That is where kids loose hope.
Unless someone buys pre-drilled or makes drilled bodies, big variation in the race. Don't make it worse with dumb rules.
To make the race more interesting- look into dynamic scheduling. I even did this once without a computer program. The last race I ran we had 85% of the cars win at least one heat, and the cars only raced 5 heats each, and by having the slowest cars race the slowest cars, each race was close and the big discrepancy to the few fast cars was minimized..

 

[Guest]

I think the rules looked good.

Perhaps take out the part about the 45 degree angle of the wheel.

It seems a little advanced for scout racing and if you see it appearing then you can add the rule next year.

Specifying that the axles retain their heads seems like something most people would say
"Well how else would the wheel stay on there?" You could probably do without that too and see how it goes.

Good Luck!

 

[Guest]

"Life is hard, it's even harder when your stupid"--John Wayne

News flash- the informed builder will win no matter what the rules unless we play Candy Land to determine the winner. The correct question is how will rules like 4 on the floor no angles change the distribution?
I have real data covering Many years of packs with no rules- loose rules and tight rules. The biggest range is created by tight rules. That is where kids loose hope.
Unless someone buys pre-drilled or makes drilled bodies, big variation in the race. Don't make it worse with dumb rules.
To make the race more interesting- look into dynamic scheduling. I even did this once without a computer program. The last race I ran we had 85% of the cars win at least one heat, and the cars only raced 5 heats each, and by having the slowest cars race the slowest cars, each race was close and the big discrepancy to the few fast cars was minimized..

Now that is a cool idea!
TX Chemist, You have a very interesting way of seeing the world.

 

[txchemist]

I want to beat the whey out of everyone and have them cheering at the end of the race because they were almost as fast!. When they see over 5 car lengths in a race they cry "CHEATER!".

 

[LightninBoy]

About the only thing I changed was the ability to lathe or CnC (what is that anyway?) the wheels. I do not want the race to be a battle of the pocket-book or the machinist's kid wins.

If that is your intent (and I think its a good one) then I'd rethink the 2 gram weight rule. Lightened wheels done right take special skill and tooling, cost big bucks in the aftermarket, and would be a big advantage over the kit wheels. I also wonder about the feasibility of enforcing that rule in a youth race where the axles will undoubtedly be wedged in too tight and/or glued in.

Instead, consider outlawing lightened wheels. Below is a link to our council rules that shows some language you could use.

http://www.northernstarbsa.org/Forms/Activities/PinewoodDerbyRules.pdf

 

[Pacfanweb]

IMO I don't see why you need to respond, but the fact of the matter is this: The people that know how to build a fast car will be the fastest no matter what the rules are.

To say that 3 wheels is an advantage for anyone is just ignorance. It's not. Again, the same people are going to be the top cars no matter what.

Here's what 4-down rules really do: Hurt the people who don't know what they're doing, especially if you have to use the slots.
It's easier to accidentally have a 3-wheeler with the slots than it is to have 4 touching if you don't know what you're doing.

So the new builders who don't care about doing the research and building a fast car show up with an accidental 3 wheeler. They are told to get 4 touching. They then break the slot trying to push the wheel down. Car is ruined.

It's a dumb rule.

 

[Guest]

Ha! Or else the guy that knows what he is doing and really struggled to get all four touching races against the 3 wheeler because it slipped thru inspection.

 

[Kinser Racing]

I'd just tell him "Thank you for your concern, I'll consider what you've said". That's it! Then do it exactly like you have planned. You considered it and made your decision, but he doesn't need to be told that. "Those convinced against their will are of the same opinion still."

 

[IAE Racing]

Quote:
Originally Posted by chromegsx
I wouldn't respond other than to say, it doesn't matter what the rules are, the same people that want to win will always be at the top. You can't please 100% of the people 100% of the time. Move forward the best you know how with the info you do have learn from your mistakes and you will be successful.

Perfect response. The more restrictive the rules, the more the good ones dominate and more cheating occurs.

+1 and +1 Also

If that is your intent (and I think its a good one) then I'd rethink the 2 gram weight rule. Lightened wheels done right take special skill and tooling, cost big bucks in the aftermarket, and would be a big advantage over the kit wheels. I also wonder about the feasibility of enforcing that rule in a youth race where the axles will undoubtedly be wedged in too tight and/or glued in.

Instead, consider outlawing lightened wheels. Below is a link to our council rules that shows some language you could use.

http://www.northernstarbsa.org/Forms/Activities/PinewoodDerbyRules.pdf

　

A. Use only Official Scout Grand Prix wheels.

All lettering/numbering, both inside and outside, must remain complete and be visible.The fluting and other BSA markings on the outside wheel area must remain visible. Outer wheel surface may be sanded, shaved, or polished to remove surface imperfections, mold casting burrs,and correct off center wheel bores. Outer wheel surface must not be reshaped in any way in an attempt to minimize tread contact or alter aerodynamics. Tread surface must be flat and parallel to the wheel bore. Coning the hubs and truing the inside tread edge is allowed. Tread width may not be less than 7.5 mm. You may add material such as glue, fingernail polish, or tape, to the inside of the wheel to aid in balancing of the wheel, but no material may be removedfrom the inside surfaces.Minimum diameter of wheel is 1.16" to maintain the ridges on the outer edge.

B. Wheel Bore treatment is allowed including polishing and/or tapping. Wheel bores may not be filled and re-drilled to alter bore diameter or to achieve better fit with the axle.

Without making a wheel to fit the above description I'm guessing it would be between 2.2 and 2.4 grams

I would not totally rethink the X.X gram weight. I'm not sure what Max-V sells for trued or lightened wheels. My point it referring to the common scout rule "wheels may be lightly sanded". With an actual weight, then there is a measurable objective, unless you were to allow the superlite wheel like Mid America so all the was to measure is tread width and seeing the lettering. You can "lightly sand the crap out of a wheel and get it to 2.4 with some work. with BSA wheels. I think a 2.5 gram weight would be reasonable for "lightly sanded"

JM2C

Thinking More, I guess Lighting boys rules are probably measurable, but I bet someone can remove weight from the inside without it being noticeable. The ultimate goal would be could check the wheel 100% objective without having to remove them.

 

[kpendle]

I wouldn't respond other than to say, it doesn't matter what the rules are, the same people that want to win will always be at the top. You can't please 100% of the people 100% of the time. Move forward the best you know how with the info you do have learn from your mistakes and you will be successful.

+1 again

If you make the restrictive rules it is harder to build the car to the rules, for example 4 flat. So either you send many people away with a DQ or don't enforce the rules. If historically the rules have not been enforced someone will cheat and purposely build a car that they know breaks the rules. But if they are not following the tips you can get here they will still probably get beat by someone who is and is following the rules.

Keep it simple and have fun. If anyone complains offer to let them run the whole thing next year. I get irritated about people complaining about how things are done by people who are volunteering their time and effort to run events. It may not be perfect but at least they are putting in the effort.

I know that drifted off the topic but I say give a big thank you to all those people who volunteer their time so all the others can just show up and reap the benefits.

 

[Guest]

I want to beat the whey out of everyone and have them cheering at the end of the race because they were almost as fast!. When they see over 5 car lengths in a race they cry "CHEATER!".

It is only when the tightrope walker pretends to stumble that the crowd gasps and hold their breath.

 

[Guest]

Very true.

The guy actually took the time to respond and form an opinion on the matter no matter how misguided he is.

This is an opportunity.

This guy might have gotten bitten by the bug and not know it yet.

 

[bracketracer]

About the only thing I changed was the ability to lathe or CnC (what is that anyway?) the wheels. I do not want the race to be a battle of the pocket-book or the machinist's kid wins.

Eric, a stock Max-V wheel weighs between 2.48-2.50 grams. Their diameter is slightly larger than a stock BSA wheel as well. If you take off just enough to true it up it'll measure 1.188-1.190 in diameter and weigh 2.425-2.430 grams. If you cut them down closer to a BSA size, say 1.175", they weigh 2.3 grams.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that if you allow 2 gram wheels, a half gram lighter than stock, you'll be giving an advantage to the machinists and their friends.