For my 40th birthday my wife threw me a pinewood derby birthday. We all had the same wedges, non polished axles or wheels and no weight allowed. I eyeballed the rear cant in the slots and forced the dfw in at a compound angle. I did this on my daughters car also and we were car lengths ahead. Whatever you decide make sure it's at the very least a canted 3 wheel rail rider.
New to the forum, first post and a few questions **Race Recap Pg. 7**
- Thread starter Ironcar
- Start date
B_Regal Racing said:
It actually does prove something. It proves that Chris has everything else nailed down and can still make a fast car. So instead of teaching someone a method that is not practiced or promoted on this forum, teach him the proper way to make the fastest car possible or just do straight axles because of a time constraint.
Also, badges do tell the story. A sub 2.97 is fast, and it was very fast when those badges came out. The guys that race here are some of the top racers in the country. There's a reason they have those badges, because they earned them. To say you could have more badges, but you dont because you're not racing competetively with the pros is like saying, I'll send in a car, but let you win. I'm not quite sure anyone that races in the NPWDRL sends in a car just to see it go down the track and not strive to be the best. If you're not racing to have the fastest times, why are you racing? So I'm guessing by your race results this year, if you want to you'll just turn key and the badges will start piling up? Talk to any of the top racers and ask them how long it took them to master this.
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Guest
zeebzob said:
Zeeb is 100% correct! He is a BIG BOY! He is also correct with his comments. Unless someone has the desire to run a car in a league, then spending "X" amount of $$$ for a Scout race makes no sense. I have tried the bent axle method ONCE! Yes it only took one time to find out there had to be a better way. I did it because a friend/fellow racer told me to try it. (2 wheel car guy) LOL It will work, but you must have an extreme amount of patience to get it right. If you need to re-prep, you now have to start all over again with alignment. I would go with running rear the axles straight and forget about getting the wheels up on the "edge"..........wheels running flat are not as fast, but the difference in speed will far out weigh the aggravation of tuning 3 bent axles. I say 3 because yes, the back two will affect the front one as well.
Meh. Don't let all this debate get to you. They are also not debating rail running per say, just getting caught up in the method of canting your rear axles. Despite all that you can still do a 3 wheel touching car and bend the axle of the dominant front wheel so you can set the car to steer into the rail. That part is easy. You don't need to really get super precise on the steer just make sure the car is curving away from the dominant front wheel side. 4inches over 4ft is just a conservative start. If you're not exact it isn't a huge deal, you just don't want it rolling the wrong way.
When you get the car put together you're going to want to do some kind of test roll to see how it travels. Trying to get the car to roll straight is much harder then getting it to roll to one side.
When you get the car put together you're going to want to do some kind of test roll to see how it travels. Trying to get the car to roll straight is much harder then getting it to roll to one side.
Ironcar said:
ngyoung said:
Our first year, we kept it simple. The only thing I would add is, slightly narrowing the front end (1/16) on the Dominate Wheel side, will help keep the rear wheels off the rail (especially with very little to no canting of the rear wheels)
I would eyeball the rear cant using slots before running them flat. You can be off on your rear cant and it's still faster than running flat.
Time again for Chips to step into the ring. I am so happy that we have big boys on here that I can tell it how it is. I said it before and I will say it again. Listen to Kinser, I taught that boy everything he knows. Vitamin K where are your cars on the track? Send in your bent axle goodies and get playing. What a load of complete and utter BS about "I could have more badges" this brings us back to the days of less intelligent individuals like Mr. Butterhole and Murph. All talk, no action. Its been over a year since I have been on the track due to employment and family matters. This is just what I needed to send in. I am throwing the gauntlet down. PINKS RACE! Vitamin K VS. Mr. Chips Derby. This is where I get to say it. Man up or shut up. Send in your best bent axle car and I will do a straight axle car. Winner gets to take the others and destroy it. Are you up for the challenge? BSB you are welcome to join in as well.
Chips
Chips
Ironcar
Welcome to the board. As you see many here have opinions. Most here have sound advise. And then you will get info from guys that are out in left field. I encourage you to look at places like Derby Dad 4 Hire website or any other and see if they offer a bent rear axle option. Too much time gets spent by some looking into additional forums for information which leads you down a path of no return. The facts are simple. The fastest racers in the world race at NPWDRL. If other leagues claim to have faster, seldom do they come play in our sandbox. And then even fewer can compete. Pinewood derby can be as simple or as complicated as you choose to make it. For scouts, in most places a car that is thin, weighted correctly, runs as a 3 wheel rail runner, it wins. Racing in the pro league has additional variations for more specific outcomes. Stay with the basics my friend and build on a foundation that has proven success to every racer on this site.
Welcome to the board. As you see many here have opinions. Most here have sound advise. And then you will get info from guys that are out in left field. I encourage you to look at places like Derby Dad 4 Hire website or any other and see if they offer a bent rear axle option. Too much time gets spent by some looking into additional forums for information which leads you down a path of no return. The facts are simple. The fastest racers in the world race at NPWDRL. If other leagues claim to have faster, seldom do they come play in our sandbox. And then even fewer can compete. Pinewood derby can be as simple or as complicated as you choose to make it. For scouts, in most places a car that is thin, weighted correctly, runs as a 3 wheel rail runner, it wins. Racing in the pro league has additional variations for more specific outcomes. Stay with the basics my friend and build on a foundation that has proven success to every racer on this site.
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Vitamin K
Guest
Mr Chips Racing said:
Well, I'd say this has well and good devolved into a full-on contest of urination output.
I'm going to have to pass on this offer. I would eventually like to send in a few cars, but that's not something that time or budget allows for right now
I'll just refer back to the original intent of the advice I dispensed and point out that it was for somebody looking to build a cub-race car in a limited time-frame. I don't think I've ever contested the effectiveness of straight axle rears for league racing. My only contention has been that bent axles is a viable way to achieve rear-end camber, and that they can be aligned in a reasonable and repeatable fashion.
Glad I gave everybody something to talk about, though. /images/boards/smilies/wink.gif
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Mr Chips Racing said:
Good to see you back Chips. I don't bend axles and I think that is what I said, wasn't it? I don't think it was Vitamin K that said he could have had more badges, was it? I thought that was B Regal? Maybe I read it wrong? I'll have to go back and check. You can't go wrong listening to advice from Kinser or QT....look at the column to the left of this post. They didn't get there by chance.
Ha Ha Urination output
. Are you related to Mr. Butterhole Vitamin K? Why not send in a mobile? You let us all know how you have not earned badges because you choose not to. What malarkey.
I haven't read much of the post except the last few. I'll tell you of something that happened the other night at a Scout race, in fact it was our old pack, so I knew a few of the dads. So one of them came up to me and was very proud of the car he and his son built he was telling me that he had bought some new tools from the scout store,(oh no) he was like I bent the axles, got them all polished up, I got some of DD4H graphite from last year. We are ready to dominate! I was like great! Can't wait to see how it does. So the race goes very small pack 10 boys and he does win, barley. He beat out a boy that painted his wheels white and just put the car together. After the race the winning dad came over and was happy with the win but not happy with the way the car performed. I told him to bring the car over and we'll have a look. I saw the bent rear axles and informed him that's not the best way to go about it. He said I set it up like the instructions said the wheels go out to the heads front and back. I could visually see that the rear alignment was way off. I told him lets try something real quick I took some extra stock out of the box axles, not polished, crimps and all. We installed new straight axles with a slight cant just by looking at it, put some graphite in it and the car ran .018 faster with no other adjustments. He was shocked and pissed! Alignment IS KEY!!! Do not bend the rear axles!
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Vitamin K
Guest
Quicktimederby said:
Just for clarity's sake, I will point out that I do not merely rely on the axles moving to the head forward and back to align bent rears. I would not advocate using bent rears for anything if I didn't have a way to quickly and reliably evaluate and correct the alignment.
You're still missing the point vitamin k. The point is that is not a method of racing here and many don't support that or recommend teaching someone that. If you can't teach someone the right way, don't teach them about cant at all. That's what they're saying. If you're not going to cant the proper and fastest way, don't cant at all. I'd rather see someone nail the wheel and axle prep than bend their rears. It's that simple.
Exactly!! This board prides it's self on CORRECT info, and one will be quickly called to repentance for misinformation.
Obsessedderbydad said:
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Vitamin K
Guest
Obsessedderbydad said:
So...please find me the part where I am advocating bending axles instead of doing proper wheel and axle prep, because I don't believe that I have.
I'm offering an option for how to achieve canted and aligned rears. That's it. Because it's good to have options. Then the original poster can look at what he's got on the table, look at the time he has to do things, and choose what's best for him. If he wants to do shims, bully for him. If he wants to try to set up a jig with a drill bit under a wood block...attaboy. But if he'd like to try bent axles, I'm providing him a proven approach to doing it.
B Regal is the only person I've heard from on this entire thread who has actually tried the method I linked. A lot of what else I've heard is just the repeating of the 'bent axles are bad' mantra.
Vitamin K said:
Alright. It obvious you're not understanding what Chips, Kinser or QT is saying so I'll be more blunt. If your recommendation for canting the tears is not drilled cant'd, don't recommend anything at all.
On the soap box again. Bent rear axles are bad. You also mentioned VK that you don't do oil? Now why would you who does not ship in and race, read the facts that QT has presented, continue to stand your ground. I feel like this is a political conversation. I guess ignorance is bliss.
Gents - Do not bend rear axles, do not be led away from speed by those who do not race.
Gents - Do not bend rear axles, do not be led away from speed by those who do not race.
I don't think it was Vitamin K that said he could have had more badges, was it? I thought that was B Regal? Maybe I read it wrong? I'll have to go back and check.
I am corrected thank you BSB.
So this is another point. B Regal, why are you not participating? I guess I just don't understand why people put in their 2 cents without participation. Its kind of like well I did the first aid merit badge as a scout and now I can diagnose terminal illness. It just doesn't work that way boys. Time on the track with the pros is the ONLY way to improve. There are guys on here who continue to race and stay fairly quiet because well, you just can't help stupid people. The info that is available by the guys in the top 50 is pinewood scripture. Anything else is not. Until they put their "expertise" on the track, become nationally ranked and offer items of value, its all hot air.
I am corrected thank you BSB.
So this is another point. B Regal, why are you not participating? I guess I just don't understand why people put in their 2 cents without participation. Its kind of like well I did the first aid merit badge as a scout and now I can diagnose terminal illness. It just doesn't work that way boys. Time on the track with the pros is the ONLY way to improve. There are guys on here who continue to race and stay fairly quiet because well, you just can't help stupid people. The info that is available by the guys in the top 50 is pinewood scripture. Anything else is not. Until they put their "expertise" on the track, become nationally ranked and offer items of value, its all hot air.
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