NYC BSA National Chapionships

[Falcon777]

I mentored a friend for the BSA Narional Championships held in NY this past weekend. I am very proud of the work my friend did with his son. The rules were extremely rigid - no oil, graphite only, original axle slots, no steering, no modified wheels, no canting, must be a 4 wheel runner, etc. etc. etc. He finished 4th. The top 4 cars ran similar wedge designs. He ran a thin wedge, straight runner with no narrowing of the front, 4 wheels touching (one barely) as the strict instructions dictated. He used a super slick professional graphite prep that has won other national graphite only events - faster than the pledge process. All prerace phone inquires to the NYC race officials in reference to the rules were answered über conservatively with officials stressing that the inspection process would be extremely strict. Other participants experienced the same.

At the race this weekend, the inspection process was not as stated. NYC race officials checked block dimensions, wheel base length, and axle slot use only. The very strict wheel and lubrication rules were not enforced including the use of oil. Again, the strict wheel and lubrication requirements were completely disregarded and not part of the inspection process.

The three top finishers from this years Nationally Sanctioned BSA Championship Race all came from the same local NYC pack and were .02+ seconds faster than all other racers - an unrealistic margin considering the extremely stringent block, wheelbase and graphite only rules. At this level of competition this is an enormous time spread and statistically improbable.

I have been around scout racing for over 15 years; regulate, coordinate and manage both district and council races to included inspections and standardization, a NPWDRL participant, and have mentored scout winners at all levels. From my extensive experience, the .02+ second margin is consistent with an oil prepped car with light wheels verses a properly prepped graphite car of similar design and dynamics but using standard BSA wheels. This is consistent with my testing and experience. The lack of rule enforcement seems to have significantly benefitted one particular NYC pack over all other national participants.

My heart goes out to the hundred of scout families that traveled to NYC to compete in this race. Many of these families came from as far away as California and incurred healthy travel expenses. If the NYC BSA National Championship organizers go out of their way to implement incredibly strict rules, they MUST put the same effort into the inspection process. The failure to do so tarnishes the entire process and raises some serious questions into the integrity of the event.

 

[Kinser Racing]

Sounds typical of some jealous scout leaders that wreck things for everyone. What a shame. Or is it sham?

 

[Vitamin K]

Wow, this really underscores the wisdom of "don't write rules that you can't/won't enforce." Especially at a large race like that, you need to standardize your inspection process and not penalize those who have actually attempted to follow the rules.

Now, my understanding is that the rules regarding canted wheels/alignment had been dropped. Am I incorrect in this? https://www.bsa-gnyc.org/officialrules

Still, it's disheartening to hear that there was no check for oil or lightened wheels. Those are huge factors.

Totally unrelated, but would you have any interest in discussing your graphiting technique?

 

[LightninBoy]

Wow, this really underscores the wisdom of "don't write rules that you can't/won't enforce." Especially at a large race like that, you need to standardize your inspection process and not penalize those who have actually attempted to follow the rules.

Now, my understanding is that the rules regarding canted wheels/alignment had been dropped. Am I incorrect in this? https://www.bsa-gnyc.org/officialrules

Still, it's disheartening to hear that there was no check for oil or lightened wheels. Those are huge factors.

Totally unrelated, but would you have any interest in discussing your graphiting technique?

The "stock" rules are a disaster. I can see why falcon had to make phone calls to clarify.

The "pro stock" class looked much better.

 

[TRE]

And they called this a national championship event..sounds like a joke to me

 

[TRE]

If these guys are gonna have a race like this they need to adopt the Mid america Rules..Have a pro class too

 

[561 racing]

You know a lot of scout families think the Mid America rules are to lenient and take away from the basic concept of PWD, but those rules were made to ease in inspection of 500 plus cars and to help ensure a pretty fair and level field.

 

[BlewBYu]

If the NYC BSA National Championship organizers go out of their way to implement incredibly strict rules, they MUST put the same effort into the inspection process. The failure to do so tarnishes the entire process and raises some serious questions into the integrity of the event.

The rules were not uniformly enforced.

This is at the heart of the problem. No one like to bring a knife to a gunfight. You work very hard on preparing a car, and you're beaten even before you race. If the rules are in there, they have to be enforced.

There are those who justify breaking the rules to gain an advantage.

 

[bracketracer]

I just skimmed the rules, but I don't see where four had to touch in the stock class? Don't see any restrictions on canting or steer either. That would be enough to cover the .020 without going to oil. It doesn't say you can't groove the axles either. If someone slipped in a set of replica BSA axles that would make a noticeable difference too. Lots of room for improvement in those rules still, even after the changes they made for this first race.

 

[derbychip]

Hopefully they make appropriate changes and do better next year

 

[LightninBoy]

I just skimmed the rules, but I don't see where four had to touch in the stock class? Don't see any restrictions on canting or steer either. That would be enough to cover the .020 without going to oil. It doesn't say you can't groove the axles either. If someone slipped in a set of replica BSA axles that would make a noticeable difference too. Lots of room for improvement in those rules still, even after the changes they made for this first race.

Unless I'm missing some additional text, the "Stock" rules were actually more open than the Pro rules. I'm inferring from Falcon's story that he called to get more specifics on "Stock" and was told these strict rules over the phone.

@DerbyChip: I also hope they get it right. A big race in Time's Square would be awesome exposure for this hobby. The organizers can certainly consult with many people experienced in running large competitive races and can choose from a variety of existing and proven rule sets.

 

[ngyoung]

Grooved aftermarket axles are very hard to detect and could easily make that difference. Also a non-lightened lathed true wheel. Based on your description of the inspection, removing the double step could go un-noticed as well.

 

[Falcon777]

Jim the father called and inquired on specifics and was told that canted axles were illegal, all four wheels must be running, etc. etc, inspections would be strict. This came directly from the race official in charge of the rules and inspection. I discussed the issues with Jim and he decided to play by what he was "Told" because he did not want to incur enormous travel expenses and be sent home. Other racers experienced the same. Jim and I are two of three people that run a huge Council race and are stickler on rules (Northstar version), fair play, and inspections. The majority of cars complied with the "Spoken" rules I assume for the same reason - travel and lodging in NYC is not cheap - and other forums spoke of similar rules they received as well. It just so happens that three cars from one NYC pack did not get "the word" and there were NO wheel/axle/lube inspections for a race billed as a National Worldwide race. This simply does not make sense to me. Three of the fastest cars came from one local pack - all faster by a long shot of the entire national field. It is my hope that major changes are implemented to the rules next year and the written rules mirror the spoken rules.

 

[ngyoung]

I was confused by the new rules. It almost seemed like it was more of an addition to the originally posted rules. Just going by that sheet, like you said, the street stock has less rules then the pro stock. The only restriction that it has that the pros does is that only BSA axles may be used. Having to retain fluting and lettering implies that BSA wheels need to be use in the pro-stock but technically they didn't state that official BSA wheels had to be used.

Laying out all the rules for a derby is not very easy. It looks like they copied parts from other events. If you're not careful you can end up leaving glaring holes in the rules when taking pieces from different rule sets. I think that is what ended up happening here.

I just skimmed the rules, but I don't see where four had to touch in the stock class? Don't see any restrictions on canting or steer either. That would be enough to cover the .020 without going to oil. It doesn't say you can't groove the axles either. If someone slipped in a set of replica BSA axles that would make a noticeable difference too. Lots of room for improvement in those rules still, even after the changes they made for this first race.

Unless I'm missing some additional text, the "Stock" rules were actually more open than the Pro rules. I'm inferring from Falcon's story that he called to get more specifics on "Stock" and was told these strict rules over the phone.

@DerbyChip: I also hope they get it right. A big race in Time's Square would be awesome exposure for this hobby. The organizers can certainly consult with many people experienced in running large competitive races and can choose from a variety of existing and proven rule sets.

 

[down4derby]

When you talked to them on the phone did they iterate the 4 on the floor straight roller rule? If so, that's total bs. Was the mentioned pack involved with running the race or organizing it? Ive seen quite a bit of unfair manipulation of rules, deceptive information, circumventing of the inspection process for cars that ultimately won, poor sportsmanship, jealousy ect. All by men who wore the shirt which makes it worse.

 

[Falcon777]

D4D ....... You are correct - 4 Runner straight ahead. We discussed trying 5 Kids shim method or score the axle slot 1.5 degrees for rail running but Jim ultimately decided to abide by the spoken rules so as to not get disqualified and waste a lot of travel dollars and travel time. For a venue this big, this specific division was poorly handled and run.

 

[Vitamin K]

It sounds like it could have been a communications issue. From my experience, in a given Derby, the subset of volunteers who really understand all of the rules is small compared to the total number of volunteers. It's possible that whoever answered the phone had not been fully brought up-to-date.

Not that this is acceptable, but I'm just saying that it might have been something that slipped through the cracks due to the size of the logistics involved.

 

[bracketracer]

I just skimmed the rules, but I don't see where four had to touch in the stock class? Don't see any restrictions on canting or steer either. That would be enough to cover the .020 without going to oil. It doesn't say you can't groove the axles either. If someone slipped in a set of replica BSA axles that would make a noticeable difference too. Lots of room for improvement in those rules still, even after the changes they made for this first race.

Unless I'm missing some additional text, the "Stock" rules were actually more open than the Pro rules. I'm inferring from Falcon's story that he called to get more specifics on "Stock" and was told these strict rules over the phone.

@DerbyChip: I also hope they get it right. A big race in Time's Square would be awesome exposure for this hobby. The organizers can certainly consult with many people experienced in running large competitive races and can choose from a variety of existing and proven rule sets.

It's conceivably possible that at the time he called the rules were that strict but were relaxed after the call but before the event. Unfortunate situation in that case.

 

[Maglev]

What about the Pro race, who won that? And by how much?
Did anybody from our forum have their son race in the pro category?

 

[ngyoung]

I was glad to see that they added a separate class that was supposed to be more universal rules. I was kind of surprised that they added it for this year. They should have left the original rules alone for the stock class though since the event was originally announced with those rules. Putting them all together in a new rules listing just made it confusing for the original stock class.