Royal Rangers Oil/wax help?

Feb 10, 2012
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Good morning all! So this is my first post, although I have been lurking around the various PWD fora for a year or so. I recently tried to make the jump to oil, and was not very pleased with the results. I'm sure the problem is my process, so I was hoping to get some advice from the pros.

First, and probably most importantly, I should let you know that we are racing in Royal Rangers, so the specs for the car are different. We can have a maximum of 6 oz. (170g), a total length of 7-1/2", and the cars use a wooden dowel and screws rather than nails for the axles.

We are racing a total of three cars, (mine, my wife's and my son's). The first 2 races (outpost and sectional) we ran with graphite. Although we were in the top three slots in each race, I wanted to get that extra bit of speed for division.

After reading through a lot of posts about oil and wax, I decided to try that combination. I prepared new wheels, polished the bores and then used a small Q-tip (Tamiya makes some that just fit inside the bores) to apply Meguiars TechWax. I warmed the wheel before applying the wax and afterward to let the wax dry. I then inserted a clean Q-tip and gently rotated the wheel to buff the wax lightly. I let the wax dry overnight before any other steps.

The screws (axles) were polished down to 12000 grit (micromesh) and then polished with Blue Magic. After cleaning with alcohol, I sprayed the screws with Sailkote. The screws were placed upright in a stand to allow the lube to drip down the shaft and allowed to dry. I then buffed the screws with a clean cloth to remove the white film.

I placed the wheels onto the screws, mounted them on the body and did my alignment. I placed 2 drops of Krytox on each screw, let it drip down into the bore and spun the wheels for about 15 second with compressed air.

My son placed first in his class and I placed second, but my wife placed 7th. While that was not too bad overall, we were running no better than the graphite cars, and worse in some cases. Yesterday, I took the wheels off and inspected them. The bores were full of what looked like debris. I am assuming that the wax came off the bore and became a contaminant. I have repolished the bores and screws (we have the district finals in 2 weeks).

Another man in our outpost is running Krytox on his cars, and his times were at least .7 seconds faster than ours. So I know that Krytox can improve our times. Should I forget about the wax an run straight Krytox? Should I not treat the axles? Any suggestions?

After reading everything here, I am tempted to make a BSA-style race and race in the league just to see what I can learn!
 
Welcome to the board!

What I can simply say here is that process is everything.

One of the biggest misconceptions is that changing to oil will make you go fast. The fact of the matter is that it takes the knowledge of HOW to use oil before it makes a speed difference.

The Oil Process DVD will get you in the right direction on how to properly use oil. Additionally, and possibly more importantly, there may be other factors to the build that are putting you .07 seconds behind. Seeing the rules can help us give you better hints on trying to improve your times. Lube is important, but there are many other ways to get speed, and you need to do them ALL to achieve the best result.

Hope to hear more....

O.R.
 
One thing I see is the q-tip is used to polish the bores with novus 2 not apply wax use a pipe cleaner to apply wax and buff it out but be careful not to scratch the bores with the wire in the pipe cleaner when you insert and remove it. Also when you spray your axles don't whip them off the resedue on the axle is what helps the oil work. Don't spin your wheels with compressed air as this will blow the oil out of your bores just spin with your finger a few times to get the oil
spread out in the bore. One thing you have to remember is not only do you need a good prep on the wheels and axles you also must have a good alignment. Hope this helps you some and I'm sure others will chime in and offer their ideas too. Welcome to the forum.
 
ZZ, I realize that the process is important - hence, my request for advice!
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Here are the official rules:

1. All cars used within the Northern California/Nevada District Pinewood Derbies shall be of the same type; that is, the standard, approved kits used by the Royal Rangers; no other kits will be acceptable (Rule adopted at RR District Council 2000). All Pinewood Derby kit parts must be original - no substitutions.

2. All cars entered into competition, including workmanship, must fit on and roll down the track without interfering with any other car. All cars shall not exceed the following:

A. A car will not be more than 7-1/2” in length.

B. A car will not be more than 2-3/4” in width.

C. A car will not be more than 3” in height.

D. A car will not weigh more than 6 ounces (170 grams).

E. There must be a minimum of 3/8” – clearance from the bottom of the tires to the lowest part of the car body, whether it be the wood block, weights, decorations, etc.

3. Lubrication is permissible (any lubricant) but it is best not to use one that is petroleum based.

NOTE: Weights must be an integral part of the car. Weights will not be allowed taped or set on a car. If weights or any part of a car comes off, there is no contest. The heat will be re-run. If the same car or parts leave the track again the car will be disqualified from racing. No heat or race will be held up while repairs are made.

N0-NO’S:

A. No bearings or bushings of any type on the car except in the super-modified class.

B. No metal-to-metal contact on the car is allowed except in the super-modified class.

C. No starting devices are allowed. (Ref.: Race Procedures #C.)

D. No lubing or working on cars after they have been registered. (Ref.: Race Procedures #A.)

NOTE: You may use any lubricant you feel is best for your car. If a car needs to be lubed or worked on before it is registered, there will be a designated pit area set up for that purpose.

Just as a clarification, last year my son and I both were first in our respective classes all they way up to the district level, where I took 3rd in the Open class and he took 10th his class. This was running graphite. So I do have SOME idea how to properly prepare the bore, align the wheels, etc. But I am not in the same class as most of the posters here.
 
Oops! My last reply was intended for Obsession, not ZZ.

ZZ, thanks for the tips. Is Meguiars the best wax for bore treatment? Should I be buffing the bore after the wax dries?

I have been using Meguires PlastX to polish the bores - I seem to get a much smoother and shinier surface than I do using MicroGloss. I have never tried Novus2.

So you are saying I shouldn't buff the axles after allowing the SailKote (or Multi-use, etc) to dry?
 
Some more info on the cars - all three are 3-wheel rail rider with razor wheels. They all were aligned with 2-1/2 to 3-1/2 inches of steer over 4 feet. I canted the rear wheels so that the wheels ride out against the screw heads, and the dfw has positive cant and is toed in. The CoG on all three cars is between .71 in and .86 in. in front of the rear axle, and sits about 1/4" above the axle plane.
 
Here's the deal, you did your own testing and you found out that your combo and process didn't work, Meguires tech wax, Blue magic, and Sailcoat. Did you use anything to polish the bores? I have never tried those in that combination, but I know that Blue magic leaves some residue that has to be thoroughly removed.

ZZ, I sometimes moderately spin my wheels with air, to simulate break in runs.
 
I posted this in another thread, but I will repeat it.

If possible, get the DVD from DD4H and follow it to the letter, even on RR screw axles.

Abbreviated reply:
Axles:
Put on Dremel and wet sand gradually removing total of 1/1000 (begin to end) dia. 7 sec. ea. step: 1500, 2500, 3000, 8000, 12000, and 60,000 grits
Then Polish with DD4H Wheel Bore Polish or 3M Scratch Remover
Then finally polish with Brasso, from Kohl, or the like

Wheel Bores:
Using Walgreen Q-tip shank, slowly polish with slow drill with DD4H #1 or with 3M Scratch Remover
Then polish with DD4H #2 or 3M synthetic auto polish using pipe cleaner (don't scratch with the Pipe Cleaner center)

Mount wheels to Axles, and apply ONLY DD4H oil. Straight Krytox OK, but substantially inferior.

Clean with compressed air between each step.

Always use a test board to check alignment thereafter.
 
rlb1961 said:
Oops! My last reply was intended for Obsession, not ZZ.

ZZ, thanks for the tips. Is Meguiars the best wax for bore treatment? Should I be buffing the bore after the wax dries?

I have been using Meguires PlastX to polish the bores - I seem to get a much smoother and shinier surface than I do using MicroGloss. I have never tried Novus2.

So you are saying I shouldn't buff the axles after allowing the SailKote (or Multi-use, etc) to dry?

First off the RR cars are the hardest I have personally ever built. They want to wiggle the whole way down the track.

NONONO to the PlastX and TechWax in the bores. You need to use the products I am selling or Novus2 as a first step followed by a liquid glass product. The SailKote is wicked bad on the wheels too. You need to use the multiuse/blue thunder/jigaloo and once you have sprayed them do not touch the running surface again. Also ditch the blue magic on the axles. Use my polish or brasso. Most other polishes will not come off and will slow you down. Buy the DVD if you haven't. Makes it a lot easier.

Other RR tips...
Get new dowels and drill the rear axles canted.
Get a #5 screw to replace the supplied ones. Tighter bore fit.
Make it a rail runner.
True the wheels, they are terrible.

Very tough car to build.
 
Liquid Glass is not available in California. I don't think Jigaloo is available either. I don't use Sailkote on the wheels - just on the axles. I don't put the wheels on until the Sailkote is completely dry. However, I also have the Dupont Multiuse, so I can use that instead.

I have never seen Novus 2, but I do have MicroGloss. Just as a question, what is wrong with PlastX? I have seen it recommended on several other forums, and from a strictly visual inspection, it seems to do a great job. (I always clean the bore with 91% IPA after polishing.)

I have looked for the #5 screws, but no hardware store around here carries them, and I can only find them online in bulk.

I always clean the axles after using the Blue Magic, but I have no problem switching over to Brasso.

I always shave the wheels and make sure they are round, and I do have the rear wheels canted.

You should have my order for the DVD and lube soon!
 
That was tough but a fun race...

Other tips:

Mount the body up on the silver bullet:

Drill the holes for the dowels and fix the rear dowel into the car with a screw through the bottom of the car or glue. Leave the front axle loose. Mount in the silver bullet and drill the rears and the DFW. Leaving the raised wheel undrilled.

Bend screw per DD4H instruction in his video. Get the video worth every penny. Place bent screw into car with wheel. Tune car rotating the front dowel. You can even make a litttle lever to make this easier coming up through the bottom of the car. rotate the wood axle to adjust steer. Once it is adjusted. Fasten it to car with screw or glue. Remove all wheels and drill raised hole. You can then adjust steer with small turns of screw if needed. But it will be very close
 
W racing said:
That was tough but a fun race...

Other tips:

Mount the body up on the silver bullet:

Drill the holes for the dowels and fix the rear dowel into the car with a screw through the bottom of the car or glue. Leave the front axle loose. Mount in the silver bullet and drill the rears and the DFW. Leaving the raised wheel undrilled.

Bend screw per DD4H instruction in his video. Get the video worth every penny. Place bent screw into car with wheel. Tune car rotating the front dowel. You can even make a litttle lever to make this easier coming up through the bottom of the car. rotate the wood axle to adjust steer. Once it is adjusted. Fasten it to car with screw or glue. Remove all wheels and drill raised hole. You can then adjust steer with small turns of screw if needed. But it will be very close

AH!!!! Thank you Eric! Adjusting the front was always the pain. Never thought about doing it that way. Awesome.

RLB, get my WB polishes too. Why not use those products??? They had terrible performance tests for me. Micro Gloss is doo doo!!! Don't ask me why but with the process I do it does not work well at all. Maybe it works with something else but nothing I have found. I think a RR race would be a fun one to do.
 
You bet! It might be better to have the lever coming out of the top of the car or removable. I got the idea from another racer AT. However he did it for all cars...

One other idea would be to split the front axle maybe 1/3 2/3 so the 1/3 was fixed for the raised wheel... It would simplify a lot. But you would need to lock the DFW side down for sure...
 
Okay, John, you have my order - hopefully I will receive everything in time to re-prep my wheels before the next race.

W, that is a good suggestion for next year - however, the dowels are already firmly glued into the bodies on this year's cars.

Here are the cars we are racing this year:



Our 2012 lineup by rlb1961, on Flickr
 
Can someone please tell my or show me what a silver bullet is? I have saw it listed here several times but don't know what it is. Thanks
 
This should help you. www.facebook.com/derbydad4hire

36racin said:
Can someone please tell my or show me what a silver bullet is? I have saw it listed here several times but don't know what it is. Thanks
 
What I actually did which is even better. Is that I did not bend the axle for the DFFW at all. Just drilled the hole at an angle and then rotated the dowel for steer.

You could then know to set the turn for say 5 o'clock and then mark the noon setting and that would be the orientation to drill the raised hole.

Be sure to not drill the raised hole too high as I did the first time...
 
Actually, for the "raised" wheel, I don't bend the axle or drill the hole higher - I reduce the diameter of the wheel itself. The wheels start off at about 1-1/4" in diameter, and I shave the raised wheel down to about 1" in diameter.