5KidsRacing said:
WOW! 5Kids is building an arsenal for his triumphant return to league racing! Way to go Cupcake!
perfect, easy canted drill 1st time
- Thread starter davet
- Start date
WOW! 5Kids is building an arsenal for his triumphant return to league racing! Way to go Cupcake!
zeebzob said:
LOL! No, they are for my Son's Cub Scout Pack/images/boards/smilies/smile.gif
"but we are talking about speed in this thread so I don't even know why you are relevant in this conversation Zeezob"
I put on a workshop last night for our scouts and for the purpose of showing the scouts how their axles were drilled, my Son and I made this video... Not made for league racing, but I thought I would share since this topic came up..
[video]https://youtu.be/9n-P4z6EwD4[/video]
[video]https://youtu.be/9n-P4z6EwD4[/video]
V
Vitamin K
Guest
DerbyDad4Hire said:
All tools/techniques have some element of risk. John is right about the risk in this approach. Tools like that pictured work based on the assumption that the wood block is clamped in once and both sides are drilled without unclamping. Since this technique requires unclamping between the drills, the tool really isn't being used as intended.
That's not to say that it won't ever work, just that there is risk. I used it with some success in scout racing before I bought the silver bullet and got into league racing. I did it with the Pro Body Jig tool which I think would work better with this approach than the pictured tool because it prevents the body from angling inside the tool. If the builder doesn't have a silver bullet/drill press, and doesn't have Goat Boat's tool, then this approach would be what I recommend.
For me I would just use the provided slot for the rears and insert the axles at an angle. I would know they were in line with each other at least. I think Davet's method will work for scout racing to an extent. There are a lot more faster people out there now so you never know when you will be surprised by someone. Dave if you are getting the results then by all means keep doing what works.
As far as error with the Silver Bullet, that is all user or material fault unless you ding your bullet! It takes some practice but once you get set up most cars will be about the same.
As far as error with the Silver Bullet, that is all user or material fault unless you ding your bullet! It takes some practice but once you get set up most cars will be about the same.
I show the technique because it seems to work for us at our level of racing. This is our 5th car and will be our last. We progressed a long ways with everyone's help here and we appreciate it very much. I certainly wasn't saying everyone using the SB needs to do this instead. But, there are some grassroots guys like me and my boy that sniff around here and look for alternate ways of doing things. Mostly to save money and time since we are only building a few cars in our lifetimes. If my boy showed more interest in continuing with racing after Cub Scouts I would probably try the SB. It may all be for naught this year anyways since we'll have a lightningbolt car with lights.
I'm still unsure how moving our block up and down on each side in our tool is messing up our rear alignment. If our block fits tight between the perfectly square tool and the holes in the tool match up with our axle location how does it change from side to side? With the SB, aren't you still having to mark each axle hole individually which is suscpetible to error and then also have the drill bit hit each mark exactly the same even though your not taking the block out of the tool?
When I've seen vids of people using the SB they all make note that the block needs to be square to fit the tool snugly. If it's not square they instruct to make it square on a sheet of sandpaper first. With our technique we are using only the very small 3/4" section of the corner of the block against the tool rather than the entire bottom of the block. If after adjusting the block in the tool if all lines still mate up aren't we good. Seems to me that there is some "eyeballing" involved in both methods.
I will say that last year, the morning of either the District race or the Council race we had to put a quick bend in one of our axles because for some reason after reprepping (same axles/wheels in same locations) one just wouldn't go to the head as quickly as the other.
I'm still unsure how moving our block up and down on each side in our tool is messing up our rear alignment. If our block fits tight between the perfectly square tool and the holes in the tool match up with our axle location how does it change from side to side? With the SB, aren't you still having to mark each axle hole individually which is suscpetible to error and then also have the drill bit hit each mark exactly the same even though your not taking the block out of the tool?
When I've seen vids of people using the SB they all make note that the block needs to be square to fit the tool snugly. If it's not square they instruct to make it square on a sheet of sandpaper first. With our technique we are using only the very small 3/4" section of the corner of the block against the tool rather than the entire bottom of the block. If after adjusting the block in the tool if all lines still mate up aren't we good. Seems to me that there is some "eyeballing" involved in both methods.
I will say that last year, the morning of either the District race or the Council race we had to put a quick bend in one of our axles because for some reason after reprepping (same axles/wheels in same locations) one just wouldn't go to the head as quickly as the other.
5KidsRacing said:
Isn't our pin in the xact same position on both sides when we make sure it's pushed up tight to the inside of the tool and under the block?
I told my boy after getting to Council 2 yrs ago that we were lucky. We got lucky last year too and I certainly don't expect it to hold out this yr. We start our cars as soon as we get them and seem to finish them the night or morning before the race. We align it on the kitchen table with the extra leaf added. Just that alone negates any advantage of perfect axle holes. This is going to be a long 2 months till the Pack race. I guess I'll be getting my sleep at work.
- Nov 24, 2011
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Davet, we tried to give you good advice about not bending your rear axles two years ago. You did it anyway and had a good go. Imagine how well it would have gone had you listened to the cumulative experience of many of the fastest racers on the planet. Here you are again debating the virtues of your bad technique again with many of the fastest racers on the planet. I determined a long time ago that you do not want good advice, you want validation. You won't get it for bad technique. I think that you are a very skilled person and if you had it in you to listen to those who have more experience than you, your boys would probably wipe them up at council. I would also venture to guess that had you listened and with your skill won, your boys would be very interested in pinewood derby and the time you would have been able to spend with them would have been worth a hundred Silver Bullets.
Mr. Kinser, I'm wondering who is seeking validation here. Me, as I try to get clarification for a technique you guys are using successfully, or you, with all of the badges posted on your signature.
For those following this thread I appreciate the help here and everywhere else in the board. No need to followup here in any way. I've learned what I needed to know, and more.... Thanks.
Mr Kinser. I've read and followed direction by many here including you with great success. To hear that one way is the only way is nonsense. A bent axle doesn't know whether it's bent or not if the alignment is right. We may have beaten cars drilled with the SB, maybe not. I have no doubt that you could build a car in 30 minutes that would beat a car my son and I would spend 2 months building together. That's Ok because my goal isn't to be the fastest, that is just the target. This year could very well end up being a dud. We don't have an easily accessible test track so our tuning is done on our kitchen table.
Mr. Kinser, I have often asked many questions regarding certain concepts here. Not to question the technique, but rather to understand it better so I can try to identify inherent problems with a technique we may come up with on our own. I don't look at this build process as a single route to the fastest possible car. I look at it as an opportunity afforded by Cub Scouts to learn with my son and to teach him how to use tools and understand why certain things work and why some don't. This board has helped us immensely. I'm grateful for the patience you pros have afforded me.
Mr. Kinser, my son has learned about this building process using ingenuity, patience, trial and error of course, help from others like you, homemade tools, time spent in the garage with me and by helping me with PWD workshops at the scout level to share what we've learned. I was working on the brake system on my old 1956 Willys this last summer trying to tackle a brake issue prior to a trailride we were going on. This is a Willys my dad and I built together 20 yrs ago. It would be my boy's first trailride. I worked hours on it. My boy, 10 yrs old was with me for a couple hours working on it. I told him many times that he could go play with friends or find something more fun to do. His reply Mr. Kinser was this: "Nope. I'm sticking with you Dad!" We got it fixed in time for his first offroad trailride. That may be what my son learned from thinking out of the box during our derby car builds. You teach your kids your way, I'll teach mine my way.
Mr. Kinser, I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings by not taking what you say as gospel. It's not that I don't believe what you say. I just wanted to understand why. Everything you say may very well be the best advice in every possible area. Why don't you start your own forums on derby cars and from what it sounds like, child rearing and give your advice but block anyone rom replying.
Now that would be validation!
For those following this thread I appreciate the help here and everywhere else in the board. No need to followup here in any way. I've learned what I needed to know, and more.... Thanks.
Mr Kinser. I've read and followed direction by many here including you with great success. To hear that one way is the only way is nonsense. A bent axle doesn't know whether it's bent or not if the alignment is right. We may have beaten cars drilled with the SB, maybe not. I have no doubt that you could build a car in 30 minutes that would beat a car my son and I would spend 2 months building together. That's Ok because my goal isn't to be the fastest, that is just the target. This year could very well end up being a dud. We don't have an easily accessible test track so our tuning is done on our kitchen table.
Mr. Kinser, I have often asked many questions regarding certain concepts here. Not to question the technique, but rather to understand it better so I can try to identify inherent problems with a technique we may come up with on our own. I don't look at this build process as a single route to the fastest possible car. I look at it as an opportunity afforded by Cub Scouts to learn with my son and to teach him how to use tools and understand why certain things work and why some don't. This board has helped us immensely. I'm grateful for the patience you pros have afforded me.
Mr. Kinser, my son has learned about this building process using ingenuity, patience, trial and error of course, help from others like you, homemade tools, time spent in the garage with me and by helping me with PWD workshops at the scout level to share what we've learned. I was working on the brake system on my old 1956 Willys this last summer trying to tackle a brake issue prior to a trailride we were going on. This is a Willys my dad and I built together 20 yrs ago. It would be my boy's first trailride. I worked hours on it. My boy, 10 yrs old was with me for a couple hours working on it. I told him many times that he could go play with friends or find something more fun to do. His reply Mr. Kinser was this: "Nope. I'm sticking with you Dad!" We got it fixed in time for his first offroad trailride. That may be what my son learned from thinking out of the box during our derby car builds. You teach your kids your way, I'll teach mine my way.
Mr. Kinser, I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings by not taking what you say as gospel. It's not that I don't believe what you say. I just wanted to understand why. Everything you say may very well be the best advice in every possible area. Why don't you start your own forums on derby cars and from what it sounds like, child rearing and give your advice but block anyone rom replying.
Now that would be validation!
M
microbrush
Guest
Facts are facts. I have two sons. Davet beat one of my sons by a slim margin. My kids and I used the SB. There are more steps involved in winning than just drilling the holes. To add insult to injury my kids cars had fenders. I do not think that Davets did. We tested ours on a track. Davet did not. I guess we need to start building our cars now as well! I followed more steps on this board than he did and he still beat one of my sons cars. The only possible saving grace is it was my older son's car and he did most of the work and all of the tuning on his own. My younger son needed more help and so I was more involved in the build and tuning and it was a faster car.
- Nov 24, 2011
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Do I need validation? Yep, we all do! All you want is validation. Evedenced by your 6 paragraph, 500 word responce to me stating so. Go on with your poor technique. 90%+ of people do not have the skills to overcome it like you. Don't teach bad technique. If somebody knows something I don't, I'm all about listening. That would be my advice to you.
5KidsRacing said:
You are the best, Scott. I must have laughed for a minute straight when I read that. Oh, how the past come back to haunt us...LOL
Most important- Rear axles being exactly parallel to each other.
Next- Rear axles being straight across from one another.
The slightest variance can throw your rear alignment off. When that block moves you have created your variance.
Next- Rear axles being straight across from one another.
The slightest variance can throw your rear alignment off. When that block moves you have created your variance.
M
microbrush
Guest
Davet-
If you would like to use the more proven methods and don't want to purchase them shoot me a PM. You could use my SB or GB. You could make 3 cars if you would want. I can also tell you where there is a track to test on if you would like.
If you would like to use the more proven methods and don't want to purchase them shoot me a PM. You could use my SB or GB. You could make 3 cars if you would want. I can also tell you where there is a track to test on if you would like.
V
Vitamin K
Guest
Was thinking on this, in accordance with DD4H's conditions of parallel and directly across from each other.
So, assuming the axle guide is properly machined (Chinese factories, don't fail us now), the holes in it are indeed both parallel and straight. However, the wood block cannot be trusted to have parallel long edges, because, you know, it's wood. And BSA quality control isn't always the best.
Now, if you just clamp the guide on and use it to drill both holes straight, without reclamping, you get parallel, straight-across holes, thanks to the machined block. Now, if you want to unclamp, move and reclamp, then we run into some trouble, because we can introduce error and change the alignment of the axle guide when we reclamp.
It seems like we could MINIMIZE reclamping misalignment problems by starting out by choosing one side of the wood block to be our reference edge and drawing, perpendicular to that edge, a line across the block at the spot where the edge of the axle guide would rest. Then, we clamp on one side, with the spacer, and drill our canted hole. Then, when the time comes to move the spacer and reclamp the guide, we refer to our perpendicular line, trusting it to line up the axle guide, as opposed to the other edge of the wood block.
Perfect? No...since there's always the possibility for introducing error when you move the guide...but possibly a way to improve accuracy for this method?
Maybe davet was doing this all along?
So, assuming the axle guide is properly machined (Chinese factories, don't fail us now), the holes in it are indeed both parallel and straight. However, the wood block cannot be trusted to have parallel long edges, because, you know, it's wood. And BSA quality control isn't always the best.
Now, if you just clamp the guide on and use it to drill both holes straight, without reclamping, you get parallel, straight-across holes, thanks to the machined block. Now, if you want to unclamp, move and reclamp, then we run into some trouble, because we can introduce error and change the alignment of the axle guide when we reclamp.
It seems like we could MINIMIZE reclamping misalignment problems by starting out by choosing one side of the wood block to be our reference edge and drawing, perpendicular to that edge, a line across the block at the spot where the edge of the axle guide would rest. Then, we clamp on one side, with the spacer, and drill our canted hole. Then, when the time comes to move the spacer and reclamp the guide, we refer to our perpendicular line, trusting it to line up the axle guide, as opposed to the other edge of the wood block.
Perfect? No...since there's always the possibility for introducing error when you move the guide...but possibly a way to improve accuracy for this method?
Maybe davet was doing this all along?
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