Postmortem Cheating Discussion

[CTDerbyDad]

So, we had our pack's Pinewood Derby and it was a huge success. It's over and done with, kids, cars and trophies have all gone home--lots of smiling faces.

As I'm sure every pack has, we had a couple illegal cars. These were discovered after racing. My take was if anyone cheated and made it through tech, it's on us. Anyway again, this isn't NASCAR and we don't have a post race tech.

So now we're at the what's next moment. Discussing it with the dads is pointless because they will just deny it. Last, the most likely option is we do what many would do and shrug our shoulders, let it go and more specifically address cheating to the pack before next year's race.

[I edited a lot of the details out]

 

[B_Regal Racing]

Let it go.

Whether the cars were bought or made with parts out of the box, there is no way of knowing how much involvement the scout had in the build. As far as the skill of the scouts. I have two scouts who are running oil, who did build ladder type bodies (yes they used power tools under supervision), who did prep their own wheels, and did their own axle polishing, with one of those two sending in a car into the NPWDRL in Feb's race. And that scout sending the car in the NPWDRL race is not my own kid.

You can not use the car as a relative gauge of the scout's involvement.

I can spot the BASX Pro cut from a mile away. Cheetas, even easier to spot. A blind man can detect the Mid-America wheels. Chances are, the average parent would not be able to make good use of the parts anyway. Turning that scout away would surely ruin his day. Not sure they would even understand the benefit gained from purchased wheels (but the parents do). Just let 'em race...there will always be those parents (not the kids) trying to skirt the rules.

 

[CTDerbyDad]

I'm with you on letting it go. While there is no doubt about one, the other is all circumstantial.

As far as Scout involvement, I don't ever really go there. How much of the build can be done by the Scout varies by age and also varies a lot by Scout. And, it's really easy to get on a high horse on the Scout involvement. I hear cracks about that at derbies and I cringe because you never really know. As we all know, the point of the Pinewood Derby is not to hand a kid a box, let them loose, and see what they can do. Anyway, the concern here was that two cars were "eBay cars." The reality is there's not much we can do about it. I will address next year in an effort to curb it, but can't see doing much more than that.

 

[CTDerbyDad]

Turning that scout away would surely ruin his day.

I agree 100%. And, I probably set myself up when in a committee meeting as said as much when I said I wouldn't punish the kid for the deeds of the dad. One of the dads there bought the DerbyDust car.

 

[HurriCrane Racing]

I agree to let it go. Anything not caught during the incoming inspection is on the organizer and inspector.
You also mentioned that an extended wheel base car was allowed to run. If you pick and choose which rules to enforce, you will quickly end up being the bad guy. Hard to enforce circumstantial evidence when you look the other way on physically obvious violations.

You're correct, this isn't NASCAR racing. There is more cheating in PWD!

 

[CTDerbyDad]

The extended wheelbase was found after all racing. It slipped by the two guys doing tech. It was the specific car that prompted me to tell the others that if it passed tech, it's on us. I stand by that, but I also admit it would have been a tough pill to swallow if it was a winner.

 

[tinman racing]

A few years ago at the district race I witnessed first hand a truly sad chain of events. My son and his cousin both had cars in the race so me and my brother-in-law were at the tech table. At the tech table was older gentlemen and a scout. The guy was checking the cars and the boy just sat there and watched not seeming to concerned. After check in we noticed that there was a guy tending to the track making sure it was good to go. Turns out the kid behind the table was his son. Just before the cut off to enter a car the kid pulls out from under the table a custom metal box with racing stickers all over it. My kid says "what's in the box dad?". I walk over to check it out and witness a hurried inspection before its placed in the table. The car looked very suspicious but without time to get a decent look at it I didn't want to raise a stink. Needless to say the car never lost a race. After the race the dads were talking and it was brought to light that the car had no axle grooves and you could not see the nail tips. Both of which are clearly spelled out in the rules. The winner was disqualified and the 4th place car moved into 3rd. Some on here may disagree but to me it seemed fair. If you want to cheat you need to be prepared to face the music, and deal with a crying kid and an upset wife.

 

[CTDerbyDad]

In the story you describe, it sounds fair to me because it also sounds like inspection wasn't legit. Still, sure stinks for that kid.

 

[tinman racing]

Yep, there were tears from one kid and big smiles from another. It all comes down to the parents and what they are willing to risk putting their kid through. The kid not only lost his trophy but more importantly his car was called cheated. Rules are written for a reason, especially at the scout level. If an adult wishes to cheat on his own car that's their choice, just don't put your kid in a position where they might be compromised.

 

[Vitamin K]

A few years ago at the district race I witnessed first hand a truly sad chain of events. My son and his cousin both had cars in the race so me and my brother-in-law were at the tech table. At the tech table was older gentlemen and a scout. The guy was checking the cars and the boy just sat there and watched not seeming to concerned. After check in we noticed that there was a guy tending to the track making sure it was good to go. Turns out the kid behind the table was his son. Just before the cut off to enter a car the kid pulls out from under the table a custom metal box with racing stickers all over it. My kid says "what's in the box dad?". I walk over to check it out and witness a hurried inspection before its placed in the table. The car looked very suspicious but without time to get a decent look at it I didn't want to raise a stink. Needless to say the car never lost a race. After the race the dads were talking and it was brought to light that the car had no axle grooves and you could not see the nail tips. Both of which are clearly spelled out in the rules. The winner was disqualified and the 4th place car moved into 3rd. Some on here may disagree but to me it seemed fair. If you want to cheat you need to be prepared to face the music, and deal with a crying kid and an upset wife.

That's unfortunate, but ideally you catch noncompliant cars before actually allowing them to run. Unless you have a stipulation about "winning cars will automatically be checked for XYZ," I think the best policy to follow is that if the car makes it through tech-in, it is good to go.

 

[tinman racing]

If the check if was fair I would agree with you. But as I stated, the inspector and the track official (kids dad) were friends. There was obvious biased. I ran into a guy at Hobby Lobby who was also buying supplies for his scout derby. We got to talking and he said that in his pack/district the top 3 finishers have a wheel removed to inspect the axles and wheels (WOW).

 

[CTDerbyDad]

. . . his pack/district the top 3 finishers have a wheel removed to inspect the axles and wheels (WOW).

Wow indeed. I wouldn't be in favor of what might be considered destructive testing. With our pack, top three finishers from each den are eligible and encouraged to go to districts. Yanking a tire and wheel off if it's glued in probably won't help their efforts. That said, I appreciate the effort to curb cheating.

I have come to realize I do a less-than-great job of introducing Pinewood Derby each year. At every December pack meeting we basically announce car kits are for sale over there and the race in on January whatever. We do have a lot of communication in between, but who knows what emails actually get read. Next year, we're handing out the kits in November and I am going to do a better presentation mostly for the benefit of newcomers but also to remind some "old timers" what it's all about. I also have two short letters to go with each kit--one for the Cub and one for the parent.

 

[GravityX]

You're correct, this isn't NASCAR racing. There is more cheating in PWD!

So TRUE!

 

[45t]

Quote: So, we had our pack's Pinewood Derby and it was a huge success. It's over and done with, kids, cars and trophies have all gone home--lots of smiling faces.

As I'm sure every pack has, we had a couple illegal cars. These were discovered after racing. My take was if anyone cheated and made it through tech, it's on us. Anyway again, this isn't NASCAR and we don't have a post race tech.

So now we're at the what's next moment. Discussing it with the dads is pointless because they will just deny it. Last, the most likely option is we do what many would do and shrug our shoulders, let it go and more specifically address cheating to the pack before next year's race. End quote:

Wow this sounds so familiar, were you by chance at our pack race last weekend? We had similar issues with cars after check in that we noticed questionable parts on. One family had several cars all with illegal parts and those cars were winning. The pack master was notified and so was the dad. The dad got very defensive and wanted to argue with anyone who disagreed with him. We let the races finish with the questionable cars because they had already went through inspection and it was on us that they made it through. Plus the kids were the ones that were going to lose out due to the dads actions if the cars were pulled from racing. I did notice that in the championship race one of the cars was winning, but when it came to awards the car didn't place. I wonder if it was DQed?

I did hear through the grapevine that at the next leaders meeting, there is going to be some discussion on the incident and what changes will occur from here on out.

 

[NoobRacing71]

I am the Cub Master for my pack. This year i had to run the derby because I had no volunteers step up. I did tech inspections and ran the heats while the Troop provided boys to running the track.

I could tell what parent went to what web site and took what they read and went overboard. On one car, the wheels were almost canted to 45 degrees on all 4 wheels. It wouldn't even roll down the track because the wheels were pinched against the body. I helped him bend the axles so the car could run. Another car was dripping oil and had H grooved wheels. I gave him a set of fresh wheels and axles and had him swap them out.

I don't have the heart to not let a scout run their car because someone (dad) didn't read the rules. I try to help them get back within the rules as best as I can.

 

[CivilWarTalk]

I am the Cub Master for my pack. This year i had to run the derby because I had no volunteers step up. I did tech inspections and ran the heats while the Troop provided boys to running the track.

I could tell what parent went to what web site and took what they read and went overboard. On one car, the wheels were almost canted to 45 degrees on all 4 wheels. It wouldn't even roll down the track because the wheels were pinched against the body. I helped him bend the axles so the car could run. Another car was dripping oil and had H grooved wheels. I gave him a set of fresh wheels and axles and had him swap them out.

I don't have the heart to not let a scout run their car because someone (dad) didn't read the rules. I try to help them get back within the rules as best as I can.

Sometimes that's the best you can do! I was helping with tech in at our Cub Scout race, we had a few cars that were way overweight and glued together so well that we couldn't remove the weights. We told these scouts and dads that we'd help them get the cars as close to legal as we could, and that no matter what, they would be in the race.

Thank goodness I brought a bunch of tools, my dremel came in real handy, and every passed their final tech in.

I think it helped to take the pressure off the parents, mostly tiger parents, that the car would be in the race no matter what.

 

[Halo Blu]

My scale read 5.01, and I fully expected to have to remove the additional weight. The guy weighing said 5 oz. "You're good to go!"
Then, I stood behind him, and saw 5.56, 5.79, 5.88. He only warned the people "way under" weight. As long as it didn't hit 6 oz. he'd let the high 5's fly by. I'm not a rocket scientist, but 5.01 is OVER WEIGHT! I'm sorry, I didn't cheat, but why have a 5 oz. RULE if you don't enforce it?
Guess who won?

 

[Crash Enburn]

The "cheater" at 5.01? /images/boards/smilies/wink.gif

(This was supposed to be tongue-in-cheek, not an accusation HB)

 

[Halo Blu]

Is it cheating? My scale said 5.01 Oz. His scale (I Think?? I didn't see it, because I was standing opposite from him at that point. He said, "5 Oz. You're good to go!") I did! See the other over weights, and he (AND I!) let them skate by, and he only warned the way under weights.(ALTHOUGH! I DID TELL HIM 5. ANYTHING- IS OVER!!!) He didn't care, or flinch when the next car weighed 5.56!!! Like most, I didn't want to raise a stink...My BAD! The two cars that beat my G'Sons were 1/4 Oz. and 1/2 Oz. OVER! Never again, will I rob my G'Kids from a true win- when you compare Apples to Apples. 5 Oz. is not 5.anything!!! I was prepared to remove the .01 Oz. Best Effort/Last Place won a Trophy as large as 1st! Just WRONG!

 

[Pacfanweb]

In the story you describe, it sounds fair to me because it also sounds like inspection wasn't legit. Still, sure stinks for that kid.

Sounds like to me the kid knew about it. He knew he waiting until all the other cars were teched and then pulled his out for a quickie inspection. If he was sitting at the table, supposedly "helping" the inspections, why would his car not have been the first one they did?

Yeah...he knew.

All this talk makes me think: People get so heated about "how much the Cub really helped", and whether all the rules were followed or not, right?

Then, at any race, particularly the bigger District or Council races, you can walk right over to the cars that are there for Craftsmanship and Originality and look at some masterpieces that would make Bob Vila's mouth drop.....and tell me, just how much of THOSE cars did the Cub have a hand in building? And why isn't anyone complaining when a car that clearly no Scout touched wins Craftsmanship, but they'll whine and want rules changed if someone beats them in the actual race?

All of it is part of the Pinewood Derby...not just the racing. Seems odd to me.