Postmortem Cheating Discussion

[CTDerbyDad]

And why isn't anyone complaining when a car that clearly no Scout touched wins Craftsmanship, but they'll whine and want rules changed if someone beats them in the actual race?

All of it is part of the Pinewood Derby...not just the racing. Seems odd to me.

Next year, we are making it clear that no pre-built cars such as from Revell will be allowed. We offer 13 non-racing trophies and we had a few that won. In the past, we turned a blind eye to the pre-cut cars. We knew they never win a race and the hope was the kid was at least sanding and painting them. Now, they are entering them unsanded and with the much-improved box included decals. To our impartial judges they look good and get picked. The second problem is our unofficial allowing the Revell type pre-cuts opens the door for the cheater pre-built cars.

As far as the masterpieces that look like a kid had no part in them, I don't really know. I don't really know what to do and I don't really ever know how much a kid participated.

 

[Crash Enburn]

Have a banner with the Cub Scout motto: "Do your best." At check in, ask the scout, "Did you do your best?"

There is nearly no way to get around the pre-built cars. What if a kid and his parent put together a car that ends up looking like a pre-cut block? They get DQ'd for the similarity? What if a pro builder (million dollar idea here, guys...) builds and sells a car with a perfect drill, but an imperfect shape?

You're just making more stress for yourself.

 

[Pacfanweb]

As far as the masterpieces that look like a kid had no part in them, I don't really know. I don't really know what to do and I don't really ever know how much a kid participated.

Couldn't you say that about every fast car, too?

My point is, people always want to judge the kids/parents that have fast cars. "The Dad build all that, the kid did nothing". They just KNOW the kid did nothing.

I can show them pics and/or video of my son from Tiger to tonight as a Webelo II, at the drill press polishing his own axles. I told him what to do and did all the research, but he did it.

But everyone just KNOWS that I build the cars.

And last year, there were some cars there in the Craftsmanship section at District that would just knock you out, they were so well-built. Pirate ships, aircraft carriers, etc. Hell, I know for a fact one of the ones from our Pack 2 years ago, the Dad completely built, because he did it at my garage. Kids played outside the whole time. He won either 1st or 2nd place.
And then had the nerve to comment to my wife, after my son won the overall District in Speed "congrats to your son....I mean, your husband".

But nobody was saying "oh, his Dad must have a heck of a wood working shop, that kid obviously never touched that car"...they just marveled at the cars and how great they looked.....and IMO it's more likely that the kids with those awesome-looking cars never touched them than it is for the kids with the Speed cars.

Just seems like Speed is viewed differently.

 

[NeedforSpeed]

My son and I hear the same thing. He does do all the work and makes all the decisions on the build. I tell him what I know and research the answer if I don't. He is there with me every step of the way. If he gets distracted and starts doing something else I just wait for him to get back on point. I do help him a little more with cutting the block and cutting the weight pocket but we do it TOGETHER which is the point of it all. I just hate that when we win we get blamed for me doing all the work. It makes my son feel bad because he hears that from his friends too. They tell him that The only reason he wins is because I'm in the automotive business and do all the work. I want to tell him to punch those kids but I just tell him to smile and "if that is what you want to believe that is fine but you are wrong". The fact is that he and I spend days working on these cars and most of the others build theirs in two hours. You get what you put into them. It just like life. Entitlement drives me crazy but that is a different rant.....

 

[Pacfanweb]

^Preach it!

What's funny is, if you consistently build fast cars, people say "it's the Dad building them" to try and demean the achievement.

But those same people don't seem to do that with other activities.

What about the kid who's awesome at basketball because his Dad is a coach? You don't hear people saying "well, he's only good because his Dad taught him"....they're more like, "can your Dad teach me, too?"

They don't say anything about the masterpieces in the Craftsmanship category when it's clear the Dad did literally everything. That seems to be okay, only when the Dad helps and the car is fast do they speak up.

They don't say anything to the kid who gets good grades when their Dad is a teacher. It's more like "Well, your Dad is a teacher, I would EXPECT you to get good grades".

Well, I've been in the automotive business all my life and have drag raced most of my life, too....would you not EXPECT that I would do the research and learn how to help my son build a fast car?

I don't get it.

 

[NeedforSpeed]

I couldn't agree more

 

[CTDerbyDad]

As far as the masterpieces that look like a kid had no part in them, I don't really know. I don't really know what to do and I don't really ever know how much a kid participated.

Couldn't you say that about every fast car, too?

I completely agree. My view that I don't know how much a kid participated applies to all cars. My son is only concerned with speed. I video taped my son's build for two reasons--primarily for the memories, but also to show he participated--a lot.

 

[RBE17]

Our district rules specifically state the winning cars will be held for a post race inspection. We did not build the car until we had the rules in hand. I look at it this way, "What message does it send to a child if their parent is willing to cheat?" As far as the child's participation, I use the band saw, but they did all the axle prep, painting and helped tune the cars. There are some things I find unsafe for 7 and 9 year old children to do.

Later,

Steve.

 

[True North Racing]

This thread reminds me of the Southpark Pinewood derby episode where Randy tells Stan that he is going to have to "learn how to lie correctly someday" before the tech inspection.
http://southpark.cc.com/clips/2exlh2/youll-have-to-learn-how-to-lie-correctly-someday

 

[M2/S2 Racing]

that's funny, I just watched that episode last night.

 

[CTDerbyDad]

Our district rules specifically state the winning cars will be held for a post race inspection. We did not build the car until we had the rules in hand. I look at it this way, "What message does it send to a child if their parent is willing to cheat?" As far as the child's participation, I use the band saw, but they did all the axle prep, painting and helped tune the cars. There are some things I find unsafe for 7 and 9 year old children to do.

Later,

Steve.

I have mixed feelings on post-race inspection. In most Derbies, if a car doesn't conform to the rules in pre-race inspection, the Scout and adult have the opportunity to address the issue. This includes unintentional violations and outright cheating. I still believe violations found after the fact are nothing more than learning experiences for the inspectors.

 

[True North Racing]

that's funny, I just watched that episode last night.

If you can find the uncensored deleted scene it is a riot! NSFW or kids though.

 

[GravityX]

15 ounces, did I hear that correctly?

 

[True North Racing]

15 ounces, did I hear that correctly?

Yes, that caught my attention as well. Still funny stuff. "In 3, 2, 1....."

 

[davet]

Appropriately timed thread for us. We just came in first at Districts with a pretty cool LED car. At check-in there were issues regarding cookie crumbs getting all over our wheels from the roll test section of track and we had to get the car back to clean them off. I pointed out after the race how we enjoyed the event and thanked them. We also mentioned to the coordinator today through e-mail about the check-in and about the bad seams causing cars to jump the lanes. I mentioned how the stager placed cars several times with front wheels on the center lane only to be caught by the crowd prior to the pin dropping. Except one time when that car finished last.

I've been blasted by her husband now and others from the District that clearly looked up our results after hearing our issues. They referred to our car as "parent-engineered" and how it should've been DQ'd because of the LED's. Our LED's shine to the sides and we cleared them with BestTrack back on 12-05-15 prior to installing them and with our Council rule author.

I told the husband we started building our cars every year a few days after we get the kits in Nov. We spend sometimes 5 days in the garage just shaping the body. 30 mins per axle at the drillpress, 30 mins per wheel, how my boy made a mistake on the car while I was at work and called to say we needed to start over. I told him how he uses the tools WITH me and learns. We use every day of the 2 months we get to build the car.

His reply was that I need to get familiar some Boy Scout acronym "EDGE" and how I need to show him how to use the tools and let him build it himself.

Last year the inspector tried shoving an aftermarket gap gauge between our wheels and body. She forcefully was trying to get it in. When she got to the second wheel I finally had to tell her she would damage the car. She said it needed to meet the rules. I told her the rules don't specify gap and she handed back and said we could fix it if she had damaged it.

I mentioned this again today to the Coordinator's husband ripping us and he said that was an appropriate check for her to do because the rules say the wheels need to be 4" apart. Our rules say the WB can be no less than 4". The total width of the car can be no more than 2 3/4". Even he doesn't know the rules.

 

[davet]

Appropriately timed thread for us. We just came in first at Districts with a pretty cool LED car. At check-in there were issues regarding cookie crumbs getting all over our wheels from the roll test section of track and we had to get the car back to clean them off. I pointed out after the race how we enjoyed the event and thanked them. We also mentioned to the coordinator today through e-mail about the check-in and about the bad seams causing cars to jump the lanes. I mentioned how the stager placed cars several times with front wheels on the center lane only to be caught by the crowd prior to the pin dropping. Except one time when that car finished last.

I've been blasted by her husband now and others from the District that clearly looked up our results after hearing our issues. They referred to our car as "parent-engineered" and how it should've been DQ'd because of the LED's. Our LED's shine to the sides and we cleared them with BestTrack back on 12-05-15 prior to installing them and with our Council rule author.

I told the husband we started building our cars every year a few days after we get the kits in Nov. We spend sometimes 5 days in the garage just shaping the body. 30 mins per axle at the drillpress, 30 mins per wheel, how my boy made a mistake on the car while I was at work and called to say we needed to start over. I told him how he uses the tools WITH me and learns. We use the entire 2 months we get to build the car.

His reply was that I need to get familiar some Boy Scout acronym "EDGE" and how I need to show him how to use the tools and let him build it himself.

Last year the inspector tried shoving an aftermarket gap gauge between our wheels and body. She forcefully was trying to get it in. When she got to the second wheel I finally had to tell her she would damage the car. She said it needed to meet the rules. I told her the rules don't specify gap and she handed back and said we could fix it if she had damaged it.

I mentioned this again today to the Coordinator's husband ripping us and he said that was an appropriate check for her to do because the rules say the wheels need to be 4" apart. Our rules say the WB can be no less than 4". The total width of the car can be no more than 2 3/4". Even he doesn't know the rules.

 

[davet]

Sorry about the double post. Tried editing and screwed it up.

 

[Gtdhw]

Next year, we are making it clear that no pre-built cars such as from Revell will be allowed. We offer 13 non-racing trophies and we had a few that won. In the past, we turned a blind eye to the pre-cut cars. We knew they never win a race and the hope was the kid was at least sanding and painting them. Now, they are entering them unsanded and with the much-improved box included decals. To our impartial judges they look good and get picked. The second problem is our unofficial allowing the Revell type pre-cuts opens the door for the cheater pre-built cars.

As far as the masterpieces that look like a kid had no part in them, I don't really know. I don't really know what to do and I don't really ever know how much a kid participated.

Two years ago, my then Bear & I went to the local hobby store to pick up some supplies for our upcoming pwd builds for that year. He spots the Revell funny car/race car body, and is all over it saying "Thats what I want to build this year Dad, that one!!" I picked it up off of the rack, gave it a good look-over, and asked if he was sure. He said "YES! That's the one for sure!". I said "Sounds good to me, I'll build one too" (we always build, side by side cars every year). I grabbed it, and we continued on. When we were eventually headed to the checkout, he says "Dad, I thought you wanted to build one too?". I told him that I indeed did. He says "Well, don't we need two of them then?", I smiled at him and replied that "we only need one". He was a bit confused until I explained that we were buying this one for/as a pattern only, and that we would be "making our own" out of our box blocks. He was a little worried wondering if we could pull it off, but he was thrilled all through the process, and was very happy with our results (pics of him doing work every step of his build). I know that there were folks there that thought for sure that it was a store bought pre-cut car, and we both loved knowing that they were wrong. He won the Pack race with it.

^Preach it!

What's funny is, if you consistently build fast cars, people say "it's the Dad building them" to try and demean the achievement.

But those same people don't seem to do that with other activities.

What about the kid who's awesome at basketball because his Dad is a coach? You don't hear people saying "well, he's only good because his Dad taught him"....they're more like, "can your Dad teach me, too?"

They don't say anything about the masterpieces in the Craftsmanship category when it's clear the Dad did literally everything. That seems to be okay, only when the Dad helps and the car is fast do they speak up.

They don't say anything to the kid who gets good grades when their Dad is a teacher. It's more like "Well, your Dad is a teacher, I would EXPECT you to get good grades".

Well, I've been in the automotive business all my life and have drag raced most of my life, too....would you not EXPECT that I would do the research and learn how to help my son build a fast car?

I don't get it.

Same boat here. Every weekend points racing family here too. I race two cars and my oldest (11) races Jr. dragster. We put lots of effort into the pwd because it's racing!! It's in our blood, lol.

 

[davet]

^Preach it!

What's funny is, if you consistently build fast cars, people say "it's the Dad building them" to try and demean the achievement.

But those same people don't seem to do that with other activities.

What about the kid who's awesome at basketball because his Dad is a coach? You don't hear people saying "well, he's only good because his Dad taught him"....they're more like, "can your Dad teach me, too?"

They don't say anything about the masterpieces in the Craftsmanship category when it's clear the Dad did literally everything. That seems to be okay, only when the Dad helps and the car is fast do they speak up.

They don't say anything to the kid who gets good grades when their Dad is a teacher. It's more like "Well, your Dad is a teacher, I would EXPECT you to get good grades".

Well, I've been in the automotive business all my life and have drag raced most of my life, too....would you not EXPECT that I would do the research and learn how to help my son build a fast car?

I don't get it.

This is right on.
I've seen some pretty slow cars that barely made it down the track that the dad's have built. This year at Pack I had 2 kids and their parents ask me for help with their car after their first test run was slow and grinding down the track. Neither car had any graphite...not using oil either. The rest of the car was shaped well with added weight in the rear.

 

[Matt's Dad]

Appropriately timed thread for us. We just came in first at Districts with a pretty cool LED car. At check-in there were issues regarding cookie crumbs getting all over our wheels from the roll test section of track and we had to get the car back to clean them off. I pointed out after the race how we enjoyed the event and thanked them. We also mentioned to the coordinator today through e-mail about the check-in and about the bad seams causing cars to jump the lanes. I mentioned how the stager placed cars several times with front wheels on the center lane only to be caught by the crowd prior to the pin dropping. Except one time when that car finished last.

I've been blasted by her husband now and others from the District that clearly looked up our results after hearing our issues. They referred to our car as "parent-engineered" and how it should've been DQ'd because of the LED's. Our LED's shine to the sides and we cleared them with BestTrack back on 12-05-15 prior to installing them and with our Council rule author.

I told the husband we started building our cars every year a few days after we get the kits in Nov. We spend sometimes 5 days in the garage just shaping the body. 30 mins per axle at the drillpress, 30 mins per wheel, how my boy made a mistake on the car while I was at work and called to say we needed to start over. I told him how he uses the tools WITH me and learns. We use every day of the 2 months we get to build the car.

His reply was that I need to get familiar some Boy Scout acronym "EDGE" and how I need to show him how to use the tools and let him build it himself.

Last year the inspector tried shoving an aftermarket gap gauge between our wheels and body. She forcefully was trying to get it in. When she got to the second wheel I finally had to tell her she would damage the car. She said it needed to meet the rules. I told her the rules don't specify gap and she handed back and said we could fix it if she had damaged it.

I mentioned this again today to the Coordinator's husband ripping us and he said that was an appropriate check for her to do because the rules say the wheels need to be 4" apart. Our rules say the WB can be no less than 4". The total width of the car can be no more than 2 3/4". Even he doesn't know the rules.

I was at that District race - (I recognize your car). Super cool design & screaming fast! I believe that was your son's last year in cub scouts. Too bad, I'd love to have seen what you both would have done with a car this year. I work with my son just like you discribed. We talk about design, friction, weight placement, etc.. and work together on building it. I think it a great bonding experience for a father and son to work together. Too bad more people don't see it that way.