Question about wheel modification legality

[alanbil]

Hi. This is my first time posting the the forum Although I have been active in our pack for several years as a den leader, this year I became the assistant cub master and have a much greater level of participation in our derby.

We had our preliminaries on Saturday, and I found what I thought to be a car running illegally modified wheels according to our council bylaws. The wheels in question had been altered on the outside edge so that the little dots that run around the circumference of the wheel were removed and the outside of the wheel appeared to my eyes rounded off. My thought was that if those little dots were no longer visible that meant the wheel had been illegally modified because that created a smaller tire contact area and less friction.

The background is the car in question had apparently also been raced last year (another violation) and it won all of its heats and the entire derby last year. At the time it puzzled me because it was significantly faster than the #2 through #5 place finishers, which were all very closely lumped together timewise. I know that we had lax inspection in place last year, and that the person running the inspection would have had no idea what to look for, so there’s no way of knowing if it was legal last year or not. At the preliminaries on Saturday I watched it race no fewer than 15 times against good competition and it did not lose a race.

The father of the scout has been notified about the wheels and has already agreed to change them, however, his position is that the mods were within legal limits, and the wheel profile and contact surface area were not changed. I don’t see how that could be if the bump of ridges has been removed, but am in the right or wrong in thinking that doing that in itself constitutes an improper change of the wheel? Below is how our rules read:

WHEELS CANNOT BE MODIFIED

b. NO wheel bearings, washers, bushings, or springs

c. Wheels may be lightly sanded to remove mold projection

NO OTHER WHEEL CHANGES ALLOWED!

No beveling, tapering, thin sanding, wafering or lathe turning.

WHEEL PROFILE MUST REMAIN AS SUPPLIED BY THE OFFICIAL BSA KIT.

d. Wheels must be completely visible

e. Axles must use slots provided in the block of wood. They may be polished

f. Axle slot must be visible. Do not cover or fill groove completely. Judges must be able to see the center of the groove. Axle Guards will not be allowed.

g. Only the axles that come with the official BSA kit, or from item #17007, (replacement wheel and axle kit), or from the allowed

I would appreciate any feedback given. If I was wrong to make them change their wheels, I’m sick about it.

Thank you!

 

[resullivan]

If the dots were removed he did a little more than light sanding. That being said, "lightly sanded" is a vague term. Our rules explicetly state that the dots must still be visible and include pictures of legal and illegal wheels.

 

[alanbil]

Thanks. Our rules do not explicity state the dots must be visible, so maybe I overstepped my bounds. My interpretation of it was that mold projections meant something that would cause a bump on the tread part of the wheel itself. But like you said, the rules are vague.

 

[resullivan]

No problem. Scout PWD is littered with many vague and often times just plain bad rules. Personally speaking, if it isn't caught at inspection I would just let it go. How many other people had the same modification that you didn't catch? Is it fair to call him out just because he won? As far as it possibly being the same car as last year. Again, another difficult to prove rule which makes it a not very good rule. I get the purpose, but it isn't unusual for people to repeat similar designs from year to year especially if they work.

 

[alanbil]

Yes, you make good points. I shouldn't have made an issue about it. I guess I thought it changed the profile, but really, I'm not even sure exactly what that means. There seems to be so much room for interpretation in our rules, and if it was not specifically forbidden, he shouldn't have to change them. I'm having some real growing pains trying to organize things. I feel like a jerk for bringing it up now.

 

[IAE Racing]

These rules are basicly they same as ours, and I dislike them because they are vague. 1: Your rule states, the wheels cannot be modified. Father said they were modified. 2: rules state may not be lathed. Where the bumbs were is there a straight grove, or is it sanded. If its sanded, would most likely be rounded, most likely would still be see the base of the bumps. 3. what do the wheels weigh? Out of the box wheels usually weigh between 2.6 and 2.7 grams. Some will weigh 2.5 out of the five kits we have this year I found 4 that weighed 2.5.

Regardless of what you find with the wheels, replacing with a good match out of the box could possibly not slow the car down much. Let the father reprep a set of 2.5 or 2.6s and they still most likely could have the fastest car.

Don't feel like being a jerk if your doing your job. You had the sense to bring it here to discuss to get a fair answer. A lot of us are in the same boat you are in. Don't be afraid to ask.

 

[5KidsRacing]

First there are no mold projections on the new wheels that need to be sanded and the tread bumps you are talking about are mold projections and he did sand them.... lightly? lol... Each person's lightly is different...

Usually when rules are made about the tread bumps it is to limit how much the OD of the wheel can be changed. Some rules say "All of the tread bumps must remain" while others say "Some of the tread bumps must be visable all the way around the wheel".... there is a definite speed advantage with the second rule.

Anyway, his modification looks legal to me....

 

[alanbil]

Where the bump molds were on the tire is now rounded, not flat. Either way, I wish I would have just kept my mouth shut about it now. I hate to think I hurt their chances now. Thank you all for the feedback.

 

[5KidsRacing]

Don't get me wrong, I am not blaming you or anything.... I read the rules and understand the intent behind them....

Before you beat yourself up, removing the tread marks didn't make this guy/kid (haha) fast... Like IAE said, he still will be fast leaving the bumps intact. I am guessing he still blows everybody away...

 

[alanbil]

Haha, I'm rooting for him now. I'll bet you're right. I had no idea how much or how little impact doing something like that would have. Thanks.

 

[DerbyDad4Hire]

The key is good rules that don't go crazy trying to keep the kids from doing anything to make their car faster and are well defined. There is always a loophole. The tighter the rules, the more cheaters you create and the more check in nightmare you create.

 

[resullivan]

Agree with everything that is said. I saw your post on the other forum. There are a few on here that are there as well. I will let them give their 2 cents, but you will find they tend to want more strict rules. I didn't want to repeat what you already heard on here. It is good to get different perspectives and decide which fits you best.

 

[alanbil]

Thanks to all for your helpful responses. Hopefully council/the host pack will clarify if the wheels would be allowed at the council level for me timely, and I'll still have to time to get the word out to the family and rest of the pack. It won't prevent the hard feelings I'm sure I created. And the family probably won't use them now even if they are legal, as I've cast a shadow of doubt over them. Lesson learned. I should have checked with council for a clarification before I did anything. After the derby the pack committee can discuss whether we should make more clear and specific rules in the future.

Now all I have to do is cross my fingers and hope I'm able to properly run the timing software (my first time for that also), the system does not fail, and I'm able to secure the PA system. I better also print up some instructions on how to run a visual double elimination race as a back up. Oh, and our family has to bring the ice cream sandwiches.

Thanks again.

 

[4wheeldrift]

alanbil, FWIW, I think you jam yourself up if you say here are the rules but then don't enforce them either.

I noticed a guy in our pack the last few years running running wheels just as you described, and he was basically shaving them down past the beads. It wasn't my place to bring it up and I was indifferent, but it certainly wasn't inline with what the pack was trying to beat into us in terms of what was and wasn't allowed.

 

[alanbil]

These were like that, there was no sign of the beads whatsoever. Due to my inexperience, I don't know if this type of thing has any significant impact on reducing times. I guess if this particular car does not perform as well with more stock like wheels, that would at least indicate there's some impact from that practice. From what I could tell, the wheels did appear to have a more rounded off appearance, but maybe I was mistaken about that.

 

[4wheeldrift]

The more experienced guys here may have some better feedback, but I think in the end it's just making the wheel lighter so would be equivalent to running maybe 1.8g'ish wheels so you'd get less moment of inertia compared to someone running stock wheels. So meaning as soon as the gate drops the car should begin to roll sooner as well as you have less 'sprung' weight and can now use those extra grams placed in the back of the car instead out at the edges.

 

[alanbil]

Thanks for the explanation, that makes more sense to me now.

 

[Crash Enburn]

Do your rules allow the wheels to be run on their edges? That is, the rules don't state that the wheels have to be running flat? When the wheel is running on edge, the bumps make contact with the track -- the car makes a buzzing noise as it runs. Removing those bumps removes that source of rolling friction.

 

[alanbil]

I don't think the rules specifically address whether they can be run or their edge or not. From what I've seen around online, it looks like our rules are pretty general compared to alot that I've seen. They definitely don't specify you can't sand off the beads. I guess my interpretation was that was more than light sanding, but I could have been out of line since that wasn't addressed specifically, though I do feel that No wheel modification allowed vs. light sanding allowed creates confusion.