Rules Questions

[chennemann]

Below is this year’s rules. As usual they keep adding more rules. I have a few questions that I have highlighted next to the rules. Also any suggestions on speed would be appreciated. Last year at Regional’s they checked to see if the wheels all touched and that it didn’t look like it was a rail rider. They didn’t check the axles or wheels at all. It was obvious that many used derby dad’s wheels and axles. Which I am OK with, BTW. I know the spirit of the race is to use the parts out of the box. I am just seeing what I "could" do. I may also bring examples to show them.

Car Kit

1. The BSA National Supply Pinewood Derby Car, part # 17006, must be used.

2. Details such as steering wheels, driver decals, fenders, paintings, and exterior details are permissible as long as the inclusion of these details does not exceed the length, width, weight, height, and ground clearance specifications and race inspectors can still view wheels and axles for inspection.

Dimensions

1. The total overall width must NOT exceed 2-3/4 (2.75) inches and the total overall length must not exceed 7 inches.

2. The wheel track must be between 1-3/4 (1.75) inches and 1-7/8 (1.875) inches.

3. The clearance between the bottom of the car (including added-weights) and the flat surface on which the car is placed must be at least 3/8 (0.375) inches.

4. The car’s height may be no more than 6 inches as measured from a flat surface to the highest point on the vehicle.

5. The car must not hang up on the track during the race.

Weight and Weights

1. The total weight of the racer must not exceed 5.00 ounces (141.75 grams) which shall be determined by the official scale.

2. No loose materials of any kind will be allowed on the car.

3. No taped-on weights will be allowed. Must be glued, screwed or sunk in. Does this man I could tape weights in a sunk in hole like many do on this forum?

4. Liquid or movable weights are not allowed. For example, the BB shots in a hollowed out compartment of the race car must be firmly attached to the race car and not loose in the compartment.

5. Weights must be attached to car body only (not to wheels or axels). Does this mean I could use the hub weights I have seen, since they attach to the body? I would think that it would cause more problem that it is worth with these rules.

Axles and Wheels

1. The stock wheel base length of 4 13/32" must be maintained to within 1/32" tolerance.

2. The two pre-cut slots provided on the block of wood in the kit are the required location for placing the official BSA nail axles into the car. YOU MAY NOT change axle location (cannot move forward, backwards, raise or lower).

3. Wheel bearings, washers and bushings are prohibited. Body skins applied between the wheel and the body is considered as a bushing / washer.

4. The use of spring, shocks, or starting devices is strictly prohibited.

5. The Derby Car MUST be freewheeling.

6. Do not cover axle or axles.

7. Axles may not be altered in any way (except the light sanding to remove the burs).

8. The axles must be the steel axles supplied with the wheels (they will be checked with a magnet). Is there an axle that I can use that will pass the look at magnet test? I am trying to make it so they check, but if they do not I want the option to be even. Also I may just bring in an example to show them.

9. Axles MUST be aligned with each other (front right axle even with the front left axle and back right axle even with the back left axle). Does this mean I could drill the axles holes to steer to the left or right? They would aligned together. Last year we cut the body to create the angle. But this might be easier.

10. The wheels must be those from the BSA Grand Prix Pinewood Derby Kit or the BSA approved (will have a BSA logo on them) Black or Colored wheels. NO SUBSTITUTIONS ARE PERMITTED! Again is there a wheel that would not be detected. I am not trying to go extreme.

11. Competition wheels sold by hobby shops and modified wheels that have been altered are not allowed.

12. Wheels CANNOT BE MODIFIED other than removing the seam from the tread area as instructed in the kit.

13. Hubcaps (such as stickers on the outside of the wheel), paint or any other markings on wheels is not allowed.

14. CARS MUST HAVE 4 WHEELS ONLY AND SIT EQUALLY ON A FLAT SURFACE!

Lubricants

1. Only dry graphite or BSA approved Teflon may be used for lubrication of wheels on axles. If any other type is used, the car will be disqualified. Is Krytox a BSA approved liquid Teflon? http://www.scoutstuff.org/bsa/crafts/pinewood-derby/accessories/lubricant-pwd-krytox.html#.Vq-eIdIrIdU Obviously it would need to be dry. If not would they know?

2. Derby Cars must be lubricated for the last time BEFORE check-in and will race all races without further lubrication.

Design
1. Scouts and Parents must be willing to certify that, on their honor, the Scout designed the car and participated in the fabrication of the car.

 

[zigzag]

5. Weights must be attached to car body only (not to wheels or axels). Does this mean I could use the hub weights I have seen, since they attach to the body? I would think that it would cause more problem that it is worth with these rules.

--- Looks like you can run wheel weights that attached to the side of the car - but don't think I would do that - as you point out it may cause more problems then it is worth.

8. The axles must be the steel axles supplied with the wheels (they will be checked with a magnet). Is there an axle that I can use that will pass the look at magnet test? I am trying to make it so they check, but if they do not I want the option to be even. Also I may just bring in an example to show them.

DD4H sells an axle - in the disc it says "will pass the magnet test".

9. Axles MUST be aligned with each other (front right axle even with the front left axle and back right axle even with the back left axle). Does this mean I could drill the axles holes to steer to the left or right? They would aligned together. Last year we cut the body to create the angle. But this might be easier.

I think this is just saying axles / wheels need to be across from each other. But given you have to use the axle slots and you need our on the floor - canting may be a problem. I would probably have a slight bend in the FDW and use that to set a steer.

10. The wheels must be those from the BSA Grand Prix Pinewood Derby Kit or the BSA approved (will have a BSA logo on them) Black or Colored wheels. NO SUBSTITUTIONS ARE PERMITTED! Again is there a wheel that would not be detected. I am not trying to go extreme.

You might buy the BSA wheels that are lathed rounded / trued - but that is certainly pushing the rules since it states no wheel modifications.

 

[txchemist]

Super problem with how they could get nasty- Even if you glue in weights and then covered with tape- they could say- prove it and we said no tape. ( not exactly- but could be interpreted that way)
These rules do NOT rule out canting and steer as long as 4 touch- by the way- it is NOT possible for all 4 wheels to be sitting equally on a plane- if you mean equal weight. they might touch and so be equal height- but you can not get them equal weight. - they will be looking for equal height. They infer no groove in axle- It will occur to someone AFTER you win to tear it down and discover you were cheating by looking at axles and wheels. Then if the wheel hub is coned- you are also disqualified. The odds of finding a cheater are super high, and the twisted logic of these rules will provide a bad direction in the future. This year , the top two cars in a pack with even worse rules were 100% legal and beat all by a good margin. I got to inspect the next fastest cars and they were very illegal, but not caught at check in, and since they did not win were ignored. We have similar rules but also no canting allowed. The number 3 car had canting and was from a Revell kit- they clearly did not even read the rules because they even left the Revell sticker on the bottom of the car body. I warned them that if they had won- more attention would have easily disqualified them. ( I totally hate these rules and wish they went away)

 

[chennemann]

I also hate the rules.

Wheels - I will probably have trued wheels only, maybe slightly more.
Axles - I will not groove them, since that will be obvious if they ask me to take them out.

7. Axles may not be altered in any way (except the light sanding to remove the burs).
Would you say this means don't bend them? Or would you say it means not to put a groove in it?

I want to find away to rail ride if possible. Last year I used your guide TX to cut it and put in shim to rail ride.

 

[txchemist]

Cut & shim was what we did- Do not see why it would be a problem. I'm working on an easier method- not done yet- but I had two Bears do the 4 on the floor rail ride with no canting and they smoked all others. I think bent axle would get noticed IF a clever mean spirited person was inspecting.

 

[bracketracer]

2. The two pre-cut slots provided on the block of wood in the kit are the required location for placing the official BSA nail axles into the car. YOU MAY NOT change axle location (cannot move forward, backwards, raise or lower).

How does that rule play into cutting the body and shimming for steer via the TX method? You'd be moving one side forward and one side backward wouldn't you?

Those are some crazy rules! They require four touching but don't allow you a way of doing it?

 

[Cramjet]

I think the flat blue car I made in 4th grade is a fairly good candidate for this division depending on which slot I used for the rear axle. Time to dig through my old stuff.

 

[chennemann]

2. The two pre-cut slots provided on the block of wood in the kit are the required location for placing the official BSA nail axles into the car. YOU MAY NOT change axle location (cannot move forward, backwards, raise or lower).

How does that rule play into cutting the body and shimming for steer via the TX method? You'd be moving one side forward and one side backward wouldn't you?

Those are some crazy rules! They require four touching but don't allow you a way of doing it?

Last year they didn't notice or say anything. But again you never know, the rules are pretty crazy. If you say anything to them they act like it is so simple to follow the rules. They act like everyone just does some light sanding and pushes the wheels/axles into the slots.

 

[Crash Enburn]

2. The two pre-cut slots provided on the block of wood in the kit are the required location for placing the official BSA nail axles into the car. YOU MAY NOT change axle location (cannot move forward, backwards, raise or lower).

This is a pretty ridiculous rule. If anyone cuts their car such that it is less than the full 7" length of the block, they will have changed the axle location relative to the ends of the car.

In the past, I've lopped off one end of the car and glued it to the other, so the rear axle slot would be at its ideal position and the car would still be 7" long. With the wording here, I'd just shorten the block by cutting the unnecessary 1/4" off the back of the block. I'd consider putting a popsicle stick tongue in the front to bring the car back up to full-length — this wouldn't be changing the position of the slots in the block, but would still wind up putting the rear axle as far back up the hill as possible.