Super Heating and Cooling Axles

The tredmill has been the best and only way for me to tune my car in. It also runs the graphite into the wheels. I agree it will be 5 oz in the end, but id rather have the ability to chose where to put that .5oz of weight. But like you said, only my testing will show if its worth it. But I've got great tips and first hand responses on baking or not baking so thank you guys for that. I know the SS axles you sell are probably the best and way better than stock, I just don't know if I'm THAT obsessed enough yet to go against the rules... maybe after I get frustrated enough trying to screw with the stock axles ill buy a set for dads car /images/boards/smilies/smile.gif
 
Hey, ODD, I'm new to this forum as you are. I haven't built a car yet since I've learned that I didn't know much about modern car building. I was using thirty year old tech as when we were kids. I, like you have always been a purist " use everything out of the box follow all the rules.........." Outside of the first cub scout car three years ago that got third we've won every local pack, troop, and church race the kids have ran in only using the stuff from the box. The changes we made were moving the wieght to the rear and lifting the front wheel. If you want to remove weight from the block, use your dremel, your block won't be as brittle, you can take the weight off from where you want to, and it won't grow back.

But hey, Do your best. work hard and enjoy the time with your kids, it goes fast.
 
You can save a lot more weight by just hollowing out the space between the two axles, and then covering the top with a thing piece of balsa (1/32) or birch (1/64). That leave a lot or options on adding weight to the rear.

Obsessedderbydad said:
I don't disagree with any of you alas suggestions. This may not be the most important thing, but if it works and I can gain here or there why not try it. The cracking point is interesting and we'll see what happens. My point is, if you can gain a gram here or a gram there lost in weight so you can distribute the weight exactly where you want it, why not? Its just like saying why add fenders? Everything you do to the car matters whether it's losing a couple of grams or gaining .005 mph in speed, in the end it all adds up. And since my son is only 7 and I have a 3 month old, I'll be doing this for a while.
 
I dont know if I have the wood working skills to route out 1/4" for the weights and not bust through and screw up the block before adding the wood on top.
 
You want a fun experiment? Go buy 10 official BSA kits. Than weight the blocks of wood and measure the axle slot differences, see the differences between kits. Than weigh the wheels see the differences in the kits. Than chuck up all the axles and see the differences in straightness, crimp marks and axle heads. The reason I say try this is it will disgust you in the differences. How can it be a level playing field if the kits are not equal? "Sorry son I know you did your best but because you got a crap kit, Jimmy beat you not even trying." Sounds fair.
pout
puke


Obsessedderbydad said:
I dont know if I have the wood working skills to route out 1/4" for the weights and not bust through and screw up the block before adding the wood on top.
 
May not be fair, but if everyone follows the rules and used what they are given then its a battle of the builder. This year, I won /images/boards/smilies/smile.gif BSA block, wheels and axles. Track record too /images/boards/smilies/smile.gif
 
TXChemist-

Ouch that is a bad looker you have there ... One never knows what they will get .. and if these axles need to be perfect it is not happening with that one ..

V
 
Wow QT, having personaly stated before "well if we all have the same crap." I guess some crap stinks more than others. LOL. Just last week, I opened a new "Official BSA GRAND whatever" for a race we're to USE THE SLOTS... and the slots were not perpendicular! Good thing I have the silver bullet but I haven't masterd it yet. Does anyone have a picture of their drill fence/jig they hold it with?

Oh by the way TXT, I need my axle back. I'm fixing the subfloor in the chicken coop.
eeek
 
Your first sentence confuses me? "May not be fair", you are right some kits are WAY WAY better than other! Because of that it can never be a "battle of the builder" you give me two kits I can build the car the exact same way and one will be faster. The only way it can be a battle of the builder is if everyone's equipment is equal, and with the BSA kits that will never happen. Don't take my word for it try it and you will see. Most people new this think the same way, "all the kits are the same so it's fair." NOT TRUE!
I'm not posting this to try and argue, just help you to see that not all kit are created equal.

Obsessedderbydad said:
May not be fair, but if everyone follows the rules and used what they are given then its a battle of the builder. This year, I won /images/boards/smilies/smile.gif BSA block, wheels and axles. Track record too /images/boards/smilies/smile.gif
 
Quicktimederby said:
Your first sentence confuses me? "May not be fair", you are right some kits are WAY WAY better than other! Because of that it can never be a "battle of the builder" you give me two kits I can build the car the exact same way and one will be faster. The only way it can be a battle of the builder is if everyone's equipment is equal, and with the BSA kits that will never happen. Don't take my word for it try it and you will see. Most people new this think the same way, "all the kits are the same so it's fair." NOT TRUE! I'm not posting this to try and argue, just help you to see that not all kit are created equal.
Obsessedderbydad said:
May not be fair, but if everyone follows the rules and used what they are given then its a battle of the builder. This year, I won
smile.gif
BSA block, wheels and axles. Track record too
smile.gif

I'll agree not all kits are equal. And nothing from China is the same. But I guess there's 2 different types of Pinewood Derby races. 1 is getting the cub scout car kit and building it with your son and doing the best you can with what you're given. There's also the pinewood derby race where you can buy "aftermarket" products to make it as fast as you can with aftermarket products. I chose option 1 for his car and option 2 for mine.
smile.gif
 
My thoughts. It is noble to be "Fair and follow the rules". Is it fair that one scout has a father with a huge wood shop and the time, modeling experience, and interest to invest in a PWD car compared with a single mother who can not tell you the difference between a Phillips screw driver and a flat head. I had the rules of the pack we race in changed for this reason - everyone needs a " fair chance to compete" and not be limited by ones ability or resources or lack there of. Struggling single mothers with young sons often times felt intimidated and would not get involved in the races and who loses - the children. The rule changes were simple - BSA wheels any color, logos inside and out, BSA sized axles, no graphite coated axles or ultra lite wheels, no professional pre-made cars. A single mom who cannot afford a router, router table, drill, etc. can still help her son and buy a pre drilled block, colored wheels, and shinny axles and make her son feel special and compete. There is no cheating in this or lack of honesty or integrity. There is great info out there for any mother/father to help their son build a car to any level, spend time with their children, teach them to research, apply knowledge, and compete even tough they may lack the knowledge or financial resources to afford the tools. This is what I believe should be the "Spirt" of the PWD rules. Weather you follow the rules to the "T" or buy after market products, as long as parents are spending time with their children and getting involved, peeking their interest, getting them to compete, and teaching them applied knowledge and the science behind the build, that should be the spirit of the PWD - getting parents involved with their kids.
 
That's a good idea falcon. We did have a mother like that in our pack and I over heard her say she had to take the car back to grandpa to fix prior to the race /images/boards/smilies/frown.gif
 
As to the single mom... Last night, I held a test and tune for our boys racing in tonight's District Championships. A boy and his mom showed up with a new car that was running 3.3s. A little bit of fiddling and lots of graphite later (it was prepped with Teflon powder), the car broke under 2.6s. Mom and son were thrilled.

A kid doesn't necessarily have to have a Dad with tools/time/skills. Just needs someone willing to step up and help. And to take advantage of said offer.
 
I plan on doing that for people going to districts from our pack. 2.6's... 35ft track? Id like to get good enough to hold seminars so people can get more excited about it. My sons best friend's dad didnt make his car until 2 days before the race. Needless to say he was the slowest car in the pack. Not sure how to approach that to help out being my son got 1st in the pack. It's hard to say hey I'll help you out where I can when you get first isnt it?
 
I found some secret formulas!!!

First, let us go over some light background in the Art & Science of steel metallurgy. Most of you know that steel is hardened by heating until it glows red, then quenching in oil or water. Do this to low carbon steel, such as a 20d nail, and nothing much happens. The nail will remain soft. This is because in order for steel to harden, it must have a certain amount of carbon in it. The nail has no more than about 1/10% carbon, which is not enough. Very roughly speaking, the higher the carbon, the higher the heat- treated hardness and wear resistance, but the lower the toughness.

Some examples. Commonly available cold drawn steel is usually AISI 1018. The “10” is a code that means it is a plain carbon steel. That is, there are no deliberate alloy additions such as nickel, chromium or molybdenum to this steel. The “18” means the nominal carbon content is 0.18%. Heat this steel red hot, quench in cold water and it will get just a little bit harder, but not enough to be useful. Normally the only heat treatment done to 1018 would be to carburize it, which means to add some carbon just to the surface.

OK, this source says to forget about these low carbon steels as far as heat quench.

However, I have traced down an old trick used by some legendary builders that got the whey beat out of them when the raced many years ago in Lima Ohio.

Here is the secret process- not something I would recommend for a Cub to be anywhere around, and I can not find any data that says the harder nail took a better polish and dropped track times- so it probably is still a waist of time- but here it is

Source claims axle contains about 0.2% carbon so I'll bet it is made out of 1018 steel.

Hold axle in pliers ( might also wear safety glove for heat)

hit it with a propane torch until it glows a full bright orange

keep it that hot for one full minute, rotating it in flame to keep it even

drop it in a cup of water.

austenite.gif
Soft axle (nail) has lots of Austenite which after the heat and quench turns into Martensite

martensite.gif


Now I claim unless you jack up the carbon % on the surface, this is all for nothing



I have a very successful formula to make really hard steel I dug up.

In The Thirteenth Book of Natural Magick, 1589, G.B. Della Porta describes “ways whereby iron may be made extream hard”. To harden files he says:

Take Ox hoofs, and put them into an Oven to dry, that they may be powdered fine; mingle well one part of this with as much common Salt, beaten Glass, and Chimney-soot, and beat them together, and lay them up for your use in a wooden Vessel hanging in the smoak; for the salt will melt with any moisture of the place or Air. The powder being prepared, make your iron like to a file; then cut it chequerwise, and crossways, with a sharp edged tool: having made the iron tender and soft, as I said, then make an iron chest fit to lay up your files in, and put them into it, strewing on t
he powder by course, that they may be covered all over: then put on the cover, and lute well the chinks with clay and straw, that the smoak of the powder may not breath out; and then lay a heap of burning coals all over it, that it may be red-hot about an hour: when you think the powder to be burnt and consumed, take the chest out from the coals with iron pinchers, and plunge the files into very cold water, and so they will become extream hard. This is the usual temper for files; for we fear not if the files should be wrested by cold waters.


This four-centuries old process is metallurgically entirely correct. The chimney soot, of course, is a nearly pure source of carbon to carburize or case harden the surface. “Ox hoofs”, provide nitrogen which, along with the carbon, further improves sliding wear resistance. Salt and glass melt the whole mess together to provide intimate contact with the surface, and “activate” the surface to make it easier for the iron to absorb carbon. This is really 21st Century stuff! Even today the “usual temper for files” is just as they come from the quench, with no further reheat/temper/draw.