I have a story to tell but before I do I need someone to give me an honest answer.....theoretically if two cars were exactly the same other than one was using oil and the other was using graphite how much time would oil car win by?
The truth please
- Thread starter NeedforSpeed
- Start date
The reason I asked was because something very interesting happened to us at our district race. We have won two years in a row so I know most of the faces. Well there was this one guy there that I have never seen before. I asked the DE who he was and found out he was from another district. She then told me that inter-district racing was allowed which I didn't know. I'm fine with it I just don't think its in good taste or we would have went around racking up trophies....really we wouldn't have because I don't think it's right. She also told me that that they had issues during their district race so I felt bad for them and let it go.
Anyway, the first run down the track I knew he was fast and said to my friend "I think that car is using oil" and when we ran and we .03 slower I knew something was up. I'm not saying the guy couldn't beat us using graphite but he's not going to beat us by that much. So during and after the race I talk to the guy and he's a nice guy and even invites us to his district race next week...what, what, what...that's not what the DE told me. Whatever though, we talk about cars he's showing me his and see he has cut wheels and isn't using box axles. Which again is fine but I thought the district race was using our pack rules (I asked the DE three times for what rules we were using and emailed the guy running the race for them as well) but apparently we weren't because those are illegal in our rules.
I give it to the guy though because he showed me he wasn't canting his rear wheels, using stock axles slots, told me it was a 4 wheeler and that he wasn't rail running. It was smooth going down the track though so I don't know about that. I just couldn't overcome fenders, machined wheels and machined axles that were using oil.
I confirmed he was using oil when in talking with the race inspector. He said he noticed there was no graphite on the car and asked what type of lubricant was used and he said the guy told him Krytox. He said he didn't want to disqualify the kid so he said "I'm going to pretend I didn't hear that" and passed the car. I never want to disqualify anyone either especially a kid. I had that happen to me and I'm still not over it. He also said that that everything he did to the car was legal in his district. I verified that myself by looking it up on their website.
With all that said I call shenanigans but I'll deal with it. I'll make sure the rules are concrete next year. I can't get a car ready for next week but I have a tiger and we may be making a trip to his district next year. Not saying we can beat him but at last we will all be playing by the same rules. For the record he ran two graphite cars in the open race and we beat those....by a lot....
Anyway, the first run down the track I knew he was fast and said to my friend "I think that car is using oil" and when we ran and we .03 slower I knew something was up. I'm not saying the guy couldn't beat us using graphite but he's not going to beat us by that much. So during and after the race I talk to the guy and he's a nice guy and even invites us to his district race next week...what, what, what...that's not what the DE told me. Whatever though, we talk about cars he's showing me his and see he has cut wheels and isn't using box axles. Which again is fine but I thought the district race was using our pack rules (I asked the DE three times for what rules we were using and emailed the guy running the race for them as well) but apparently we weren't because those are illegal in our rules.
I give it to the guy though because he showed me he wasn't canting his rear wheels, using stock axles slots, told me it was a 4 wheeler and that he wasn't rail running. It was smooth going down the track though so I don't know about that. I just couldn't overcome fenders, machined wheels and machined axles that were using oil.
I confirmed he was using oil when in talking with the race inspector. He said he noticed there was no graphite on the car and asked what type of lubricant was used and he said the guy told him Krytox. He said he didn't want to disqualify the kid so he said "I'm going to pretend I didn't hear that" and passed the car. I never want to disqualify anyone either especially a kid. I had that happen to me and I'm still not over it. He also said that that everything he did to the car was legal in his district. I verified that myself by looking it up on their website.
With all that said I call shenanigans but I'll deal with it. I'll make sure the rules are concrete next year. I can't get a car ready for next week but I have a tiger and we may be making a trip to his district next year. Not saying we can beat him but at last we will all be playing by the same rules. For the record he ran two graphite cars in the open race and we beat those....by a lot....
At our district race yesterday there was a guy using something in a bottle that was a clear liquid. Table judge didn't call him out on it. I told the people in our troop not to worry about it. That if he added it to wheels that had graphite. He just shot his self in foot or the excess oil in wheels would slow him down. He ended up 4th in his group and 6th overall. He looked a lil frustrated.
Our table judge thanked me. When I cleaned and blew excess graphite off our car when done lubricating.
Our table judge thanked me. When I cleaned and blew excess graphite off our car when done lubricating.
Regardless of whether a rule is a good one or not, what the heck is the use of having the rule at all if the inspectors aren't going to disqualify a car that breaks them?
I can't believe the inspector just said "I'm going to pretend I didn't hear that", then proceed to let that car through and have it dominate the race.
It's one thing to just have the inspectors be ignorant and let something through that wasn't legal...it's entirely another to have the racer admit it's not legal and the inspector allow it to race anyway.
That would tell me right there how my son and I were going to build next year's car.
I can't believe the inspector just said "I'm going to pretend I didn't hear that", then proceed to let that car through and have it dominate the race.
It's one thing to just have the inspectors be ignorant and let something through that wasn't legal...it's entirely another to have the racer admit it's not legal and the inspector allow it to race anyway.
That would tell me right there how my son and I were going to build next year's car.
Pacfanweb said:
I agree. The problem was there were no rules other than weight really. Which is fine with me as long as I know before hand. It will be addressed before next years race if not I'm going to roll up in there with an unlimited car!!!
Well - I will at least credit him for telling the truth - the judge on the other hand
If he didn't cant his wheels, isn't run steer (assuming you are running on a track with a center rail), has 4 wheels on the ground, etc - you should be able to beat him next year with equal parts and oil.
If he didn't cant his wheels, isn't run steer (assuming you are running on a track with a center rail), has 4 wheels on the ground, etc - you should be able to beat him next year with equal parts and oil.
Some of these judges just dont care. Our pack race this year one of the judges let a car through that was 5.1 ounces. Now i could easily say its no big deal its only a little bit. but what about the next person that comes and has a 5.2 ounce car?The rules are in place for a reason. If you see something fishy then go to the administration and let them know. I also had a problem with getting clear rules for our district race this year. They sent them out to the parents the night before the race. I asked for them a month in advance and had to email 5 people to get them. Eventually i got them from the board chairman a week after my initial email. I understand its for the children but I, like most people, work 5 days a week so I only get the weekends to work on the car if Im lucky. I can tell you if the rules changed the night before the race all hell wouldve broke loose. /images/boards/smilies/smile.gif I applaud you for being the bigger man.
I recently tested the diffrence between max-V graphite and krytox-100. My results showed that Krytox-100 was faster by an average of .033 or half a car length. I also found that Krytox-100 Blend (DD4H product) was faster than regular Krytox-100 by an average of .007. The K-Blend was advertised as being .01 faster than regular K-100. My results were pretty close to that. I was very carefully to control variables when testing between products so i'm confident in the results.
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Vitamin K
Guest
Danworkshop said:
Always good to see some actual testing!
Were you using a bore wax and an axle spray in your oil prep?
For the test between max-v, K-100 and K-100 Blend, I preped axels through 12k grit and finished with green liquid polish by DD4H. Preped wheels by balancing, polishing inside bore and hubs with novus 1, 2 & 3, rinsed with 91% alcohol, put layer of graphite on inside wheel rim only (was very careful not to contaminate bores when moving to both K-100 oils.
I performed 7 additional test, i.e. Supet-z oil, Teflon chain saw spray, Max-pro spray and Gig-a-Loo. Max-pro spray combined with K-100 Blend provided a significant jump in speed from just K-100 Blend by .032 avg. The ultimate combo came from Giga-A-Loo and K-100 Blend which had an additional speed of .018 avg over the Max-pro/K-Blend. I was curious to see how waxing the wheel bores with Derby wax would do with the Gig/K-B combo. It did not test well, basically lost all my .018 gain from previous test. I let the wax dry for 45 minutes and buffed thoroughly with clean cotton pipe cleaner. Haven't given up on adding wax/polish to the Gig/K-B combo. Will have the Redrocket product soon to test. Ultimately, I have high hopes for testing the New Age Legend car polish, the very expensive version. The more I read up on this product the more convinced I am that this is exactly the properties i'm looking for. Requires a lot of patience to apply several coats under specific conditions but could be well worth it.
I performed 7 additional test, i.e. Supet-z oil, Teflon chain saw spray, Max-pro spray and Gig-a-Loo. Max-pro spray combined with K-100 Blend provided a significant jump in speed from just K-100 Blend by .032 avg. The ultimate combo came from Giga-A-Loo and K-100 Blend which had an additional speed of .018 avg over the Max-pro/K-Blend. I was curious to see how waxing the wheel bores with Derby wax would do with the Gig/K-B combo. It did not test well, basically lost all my .018 gain from previous test. I let the wax dry for 45 minutes and buffed thoroughly with clean cotton pipe cleaner. Haven't given up on adding wax/polish to the Gig/K-B combo. Will have the Redrocket product soon to test. Ultimately, I have high hopes for testing the New Age Legend car polish, the very expensive version. The more I read up on this product the more convinced I am that this is exactly the properties i'm looking for. Requires a lot of patience to apply several coats under specific conditions but could be well worth it.
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Vitamin K
Guest
Thanks for sharing your results!
FWIW, most people let the wax cure at least 4 hours after buffing before inserting the axles. Most folks report that the Red Rocket is superior to the Derby Worx polish.
FWIW, most people let the wax cure at least 4 hours after buffing before inserting the axles. Most folks report that the Red Rocket is superior to the Derby Worx polish.
I wouldn't run Red Rocket unless it's been allowed to cure (after buffing) for at least twelve hours. I prefer to let it sit 24 hours. I buff it after it's fully dry, maybe an hour or so depending on temp and humidity. If you get it wet too soon you will drown the polymers so it won't cross link and it will be slow. I never used DerbyWorx polish but I would bet it needs a similar cure time.
I could have let the Derby Worx wax cure longer but i suspect it wouldn't have provided a positive gain with the lube combo I was using. I have conducted tests between Max-V graphite by itself vs. Derby Worx wax treatment with Max-V, data showed an average gain in the later by about .009, if I remember correctly. I followed the directions for cure time of 30 minutes (I think it's 30 min). In any case, from what i've been reading, I think you are right about the Red Rocket being superior. So much testing to do and so little time.
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