The graphite only rule is horrible. Think about this. Everyone using moly/graphite blends are cheating. Bad rules create cheaters.
There is a lot of cheating going on!
- Thread starter DerbyDad4Hire
- Start date
How can they tell if oil was used in a graphite race?
We got it handed to us at MA. We tried some new things so we knew we might not do well. However cars running 2.92's and 2.93's have been in the top spots the last two years. Not sure if we will ever be able to make a graphite car that fast. Hats off to any that can.
We got it handed to us at MA. We tried some new things so we knew we might not do well. However cars running 2.92's and 2.93's have been in the top spots the last two years. Not sure if we will ever be able to make a graphite car that fast. Hats off to any that can.
At MA they are supposed to pour graphite into the wheels of all the cars that make the final race, the idea being that the graphite would gum up the oil and slow oil cars down.
However, I know how challenging it can be to get the graphite into the wheels while having air shields attached, so I'm not sure how effective with a very narrow wheel gap adding graphite is when attempting to gum up oil cars...
I'm not sure how they enforce that, they did discover cheating at this years MA in the Adult and Kids Graphite Classes, Greg would need to give details on how he checks, I don't have any other information.
Honestly, this reasoning is exactly why I support "Any lube that doesn't foul the track" as the best possible rule.
Greg knows where I stand on this rule. The only way you know for sure is to tear the car apart. I still stand by the statement that there is no legitimate reason to outlaw using oil and I have yet to hear any argument that would change my thoughts on that.
My issue is the cars that get by using oil but do not finish high enough to get checked but bump the legit cars down in the standings. There are always oil cars running in the graphite classes.
My issue is the cars that get by using oil but do not finish high enough to get checked but bump the legit cars down in the standings. There are always oil cars running in the graphite classes.
You all should stop using oil, and here is why:
Haze, toxic chemicals and dust pollute the air and water when refining oil. Open pits, ponds, and lagoons can contain waste water, organic chemicals, petroleum hydrocarbons, surfactants and other substances which compromise the safety of our water. Pipeline explosions and wells (even if properly drilled) can cause drinking water problems by cross-contaminating aquifers. Development of gas wells may even require releases of methane and myriad toxic gases into the atmosphere. In some Western states, air pollution from wells, tanks and pipelines is turning into ground level ozone. Oil and gas emissions in Colorado are now the main source of volatile organic compounds and the third-largest source of nitrogen oxides.
Furthermore, the disruption of wildlife migration routes and habitats are affected from noise pollution, traffic and fences. Biological systems are incredibly complex, and can fall victim to serious ecological consequences when disturbed by human activity. Increased vehicle traffic at oil drilling sites contributes significantly to noise pollution in wildlands. Wild mammals and birds respond to noise disturbances with short-term avoidance behavior, but many studies have shown that these behaviors become habituated. Negative impacts include disruption of songbird communication in breeding and nesting seasons, as well as altered predator and prey dynamics. Mammals habituated to traffic may be more vulnerable to road kill. Jackson Hole’s pronghorn antelope are an unfortunate example of the effects that oil and gas development (in this case, fencing and other infrastructure) have on wildlife's ancient migration routes. Oil and gas fields has made their age-old trek incredibly difficult, and future energy development will ultimately cut off their route at key passages, threatening their survival as a species.
Save the antelope and stop using oil. Cheaters...
Haze, toxic chemicals and dust pollute the air and water when refining oil. Open pits, ponds, and lagoons can contain waste water, organic chemicals, petroleum hydrocarbons, surfactants and other substances which compromise the safety of our water. Pipeline explosions and wells (even if properly drilled) can cause drinking water problems by cross-contaminating aquifers. Development of gas wells may even require releases of methane and myriad toxic gases into the atmosphere. In some Western states, air pollution from wells, tanks and pipelines is turning into ground level ozone. Oil and gas emissions in Colorado are now the main source of volatile organic compounds and the third-largest source of nitrogen oxides.
Furthermore, the disruption of wildlife migration routes and habitats are affected from noise pollution, traffic and fences. Biological systems are incredibly complex, and can fall victim to serious ecological consequences when disturbed by human activity. Increased vehicle traffic at oil drilling sites contributes significantly to noise pollution in wildlands. Wild mammals and birds respond to noise disturbances with short-term avoidance behavior, but many studies have shown that these behaviors become habituated. Negative impacts include disruption of songbird communication in breeding and nesting seasons, as well as altered predator and prey dynamics. Mammals habituated to traffic may be more vulnerable to road kill. Jackson Hole’s pronghorn antelope are an unfortunate example of the effects that oil and gas development (in this case, fencing and other infrastructure) have on wildlife's ancient migration routes. Oil and gas fields has made their age-old trek incredibly difficult, and future energy development will ultimately cut off their route at key passages, threatening their survival as a species.
Save the antelope and stop using oil. Cheaters...
As i struggle for a reply, I hesitate to articulate for the fear of deviating from the true course of rectitude.
B reg has been smoking some oil, LOL!
So, no trees or antelope were harmed while making Krytox. It is NOT a derivative of "oil"
Potential Effects on Health of Graphite Lube
- Carbon graphite dust can cause potential damage to your health. If the powder goes inside the respiratory tract, then irritation may be caused and symptoms like dyspnea, palpitation, tightness of chest and coughing may be manifested. On the other hand, chronic inhalation may lead to decreased pulmonary function, lung fibrosis, pneumoconiosis, bronchitis and black sputum. The graphite dust, if it goes into the gastro-intestinal tract, may lead to symptoms such as diarrhea, vomiting and a feeling of nausea. Carbon graphite dust can also enter the eyes, causing redness and slight irritation. If it comes into contact with the skin, graphite dust may cause mild irritation and reddening.
I'm not sure anyone else can, either. Or has. They certainly didn't this year. DD4H called it in the Live Chat on Youtube. He LOL'd at 2.92. I said "That's really fast for graphite" and John said "It's fast for oil". LOL, and damned if it didn't turn out to be an oil car. LOL@ The Cheating Cheater who was using it. Must have been a UNCheats fan.
V
Vitamin K
Guest
Mixed feelings here.
On one hand...I agree with the original posting here (to some degree). We need clarity in Pinewood Derby rules, badly. The Mid-America committee should reword its language to clearly reflect what they mean. This could actually get a little bit wordy, because, AFAIK, Greg has no problem with racers using the following:
- Regular graphite
- Graphite w/ moly
- Graphite w/ tungsten disulphide
- Pledge on axles
- Sailkote on axles
- Liquid glass (or other wax) on wheel bores
Just saying "Graphite only" is not enough. You might need to spell something out like "No lubricants that are liquid at the time of racing."
That said, the vast majority of racers do understand "graphite only" to encompass the previously laid out conditions. It's sort of a general knowledge kind of thing. I would agree that "general knowledge" is not enough, and is definitely not specific enough for a ruleset. It's a major rules gap, and it ought to be closed.
I do believe it is time for the Mid-America Derby to ditch the graphite requirement altogether. It is 2017 here. Krytox isn't new. It's freely available, as is information on how to use it. Don't be allowing 50-dollar wheels in your race and then claim that oil is too expensive! So yeah, even better than updating the graphite rules...just ditch them altogether and let all of the classes run oil. But if you can't/won't do that, then yes, tighten up the verbiage on what's allowable for the graphite classes.
On one hand...I agree with the original posting here (to some degree). We need clarity in Pinewood Derby rules, badly. The Mid-America committee should reword its language to clearly reflect what they mean. This could actually get a little bit wordy, because, AFAIK, Greg has no problem with racers using the following:
- Regular graphite
- Graphite w/ moly
- Graphite w/ tungsten disulphide
- Pledge on axles
- Sailkote on axles
- Liquid glass (or other wax) on wheel bores
Just saying "Graphite only" is not enough. You might need to spell something out like "No lubricants that are liquid at the time of racing."
That said, the vast majority of racers do understand "graphite only" to encompass the previously laid out conditions. It's sort of a general knowledge kind of thing. I would agree that "general knowledge" is not enough, and is definitely not specific enough for a ruleset. It's a major rules gap, and it ought to be closed.
I do believe it is time for the Mid-America Derby to ditch the graphite requirement altogether. It is 2017 here. Krytox isn't new. It's freely available, as is information on how to use it. Don't be allowing 50-dollar wheels in your race and then claim that oil is too expensive! So yeah, even better than updating the graphite rules...just ditch them altogether and let all of the classes run oil. But if you can't/won't do that, then yes, tighten up the verbiage on what's allowable for the graphite classes.
I see what you're saying, and I agree partially....but I see the 2 open graphite classes as kind of a nod to Pinewood tradition. There are oil classes for Scouts.
If non-scouts want to run oil, there are "pro" classes. I like seeing how fast graphite can go. No problem at all with using Sailkote, Pledge or any sealer on the bores. They aren't lubes. They are absolutely dry when they're cured. They don't "appear dry"...they ARE dry. They are simply the "next step" after the bore polish you can buy right at the Scout store.
So no issues with them.
It'd be cool if they also had an Open Adult/Kid oil class like they do with Scouts....they have both oil and graphite classes there.
And yeah, for those who might say "but if I want to run oil, I have to run against the pros". Okay....whose kids/spouses do you think you're already running against in the graphite classes?
If non-scouts want to run oil, there are "pro" classes. I like seeing how fast graphite can go. No problem at all with using Sailkote, Pledge or any sealer on the bores. They aren't lubes. They are absolutely dry when they're cured. They don't "appear dry"...they ARE dry. They are simply the "next step" after the bore polish you can buy right at the Scout store.
So no issues with them.
It'd be cool if they also had an Open Adult/Kid oil class like they do with Scouts....they have both oil and graphite classes there.
And yeah, for those who might say "but if I want to run oil, I have to run against the pros". Okay....whose kids/spouses do you think you're already running against in the graphite classes?
The Scout store sells Krytox. Our District adopted oil after the BSA started selling it.
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