What rules would you set if you were running a derby

[Newtoderby]

Hi Folks,

So here is my question if you were to invent a set of rules to run a derby be it pack or district. What would you include or not. There is so much science to learn in the derby.

Things I think are important:

No bought speed axles or wheels. colored wheels, bsa approved or revell bsa wheels ok. But not the bsa wheels that are lathed down for speed etc. Logic is everyone can buy a 2 or three dollar set of wheels if they like some would not be able to make or buy speed wheels.

Also in wheels no lathing, hole drilling seam removal ok but no rounding the wheels etc. Again not everyone has a lather laying around

Box axles or bought bsa axles including those in wheel kits above. No bought speed axles or bought grooved axles. You can polish or groove if you choose.

Canting by drilling or bending axles, Both allowed. Since I know this can be done with a drill press and a fence I don't see not allowing this. Also it is almost impossible to get four wheels or even three completely on the track in my opinion.

You can Raise a Wheel if you chose but all four wheels must be on the car.

The standard 5oz, 7 inch length , 1 3/4" between wheels, etc

No notching the front

No wheels past front or back

Extended wheelbase allowed.

What am I missing or what should be added. I want a set of fair rules that allows for the mass populace to have a shot at making a fast car with basic tools. I don't want to see bought cars or just dads buying speed axles or wheels. But I do feel that if you teach your scout the science behind the car and what you can do to make it fast they learn more and have the option to work harder. SO what do you guys think...open to all opinions. even the ones that say four wheels must all touch no canted axles or bending axles. etc

 

[B_Regal Racing]

Here are the rules I would use:

http://npwdrl.com/rules/street-stock-rules/

or these:

http://npwdrl.com/basx-rules/

or these:

http://npwdrl.boards.net/thread/8/box-stock-rules

depending on what you want to allow. each version allows for creativity while maintaining a level paying field. BASX would probably be the simplest rule set, while box stock more requires the use of of the BSA supplied parts, but does allow for areo modifications.

 

[BulldogRacing]

I think it would be cool to match one of the classes that B-Reg posted then send the winning cars in to see how that fair in the big pond. The cars would be racing on camera in a national platform! Big time. We would defiantly welcome that.

 

[LightninBoy]

The short version: these are the best scouting rules in the country:

http://northwest.nsbsa.org/Portals/88/2016_Council_PWD_Rules.pdf

And ... I just noticed those rules were posted with my comments visible!! LOL. Well - I guess everyone can get a glimpse of how I approach the rules.

Long version.

I'm passionate about this. So I'm going to get on my soapbox for this one. Anyone that is sensitive about this stuff, might was well just skip this ...

First off, the BASX and SS NPWDRL rules are terrible for scout racing. Anything that specifies a minimum wheel weight will require teardown to enforce and will inevitably lead to a kid getting a win stripped away and hard feelings. No reason at all to go there. BASX also unnecessarily restricts a lot of possible creative designs with rules intended to disallow fenders.

The Box stocks rules would be a ok starting point. Those rules needed some work the last time I read them and generated a number of clarifying questions on the board. League racing can get by with some of that because eventually everyone comes to general understanding after a couple months of racing. But for scout racing where its generally a one time event, there's a couple things that need to be tightened up (which they may have been ... I haven't checked in a while.)

However, to start I would recommend you write down and stick (as best you can) to a handful of principles. For example:

1. All rules must be enforceable.
2. Rules must not require teardowns to enforce
3. Rules should be focused on ensuring the cars run correctly on the track and do not endanger or inhibit other cars.
4. In general, allow things that a youth can do with simple tools.

These are just examples. You can come up with your own, but I think #1 and #2 should be the bedrock of all scouting rules.

Once you have these principles, then most of the major rule issues begin snap into place. At the very least you can start to have objective discussions about issues with less emotion. So, again for example, lets look at a couple of issues in light of the above principles.

Wheel Bases
Kids can drill holes with common tools. Therefore extending wheel bases is allowed. It also enables creative designs that would be limited by the slots.

Axles
Preventing aftermarket axles cannot be enforced, therefore not a rule. You could enforce it to a degree if you required the use of the slots and visible access to the slots.

Requiring 4 (or more) wheels
4 wheels are required to prevent the car from coming off the track. Optionally, you could allow a guide pin in place of the 4th wheel, but that would needlessly complicate the rules.

Requiring 4 wheels touching
Making all 4 wheels touch is difficult and does nothing to ensure the car runs correctly on the track. Kids can purposely drill a lifted wheel with no special tooling.

Washers
Washer material is cheap and easy to apply. Therefore - Allowed.

Wheels
Lots of restrictions you can add here and stay within principles but what you CANNOT do is specify a minimum weight. That would require tear down to enforce. Most restrictions are designed to prevent pricey aftermarket wheels which is understandable. But there are lots of degrees of strictness in this area if you want to open things up for some reasonably prices aftermarket parts.

You get the idea. Hope this helps and good luck with your rules.

Hi Folks,

So here is my question if you were to invent a set of rules to run a derby be it pack or district. What would you include or not. There is so much science to learn in the derby.

Things I think are important:

No bought speed axles or wheels. colored wheels, bsa approved or revell bsa wheels ok. But not the bsa wheels that are lathed down for speed etc. Logic is everyone can buy a 2 or three dollar set of wheels if they like some would not be able to make or buy speed wheels.

Also in wheels no lathing, hole drilling seam removal ok but no rounding the wheels etc. Again not everyone has a lather laying around

Box axles or bought bsa axles including those in wheel kits above. No bought speed axles or bought grooved axles. You can polish or groove if you choose.

Canting by drilling or bending axles, Both allowed. Since I know this can be done with a drill press and a fence I don't see not allowing this. Also it is almost impossible to get four wheels or even three completely on the track in my opinion.

You can Raise a Wheel if you chose but all four wheels must be on the car.

The standard 5oz, 7 inch length , 1 3/4" between wheels, etc

No notching the front

No wheels past front or back

Extended wheelbase allowed.

What am I missing or what should be added. I want a set of fair rules that allows for the mass populace to have a shot at making a fast car with basic tools. I don't want to see bought cars or just dads buying speed axles or wheels. But I do feel that if you teach your scout the science behind the car and what you can do to make it fast they learn more and have the option to work harder. SO what do you guys think...open to all opinions. even the ones that say four wheels must all touch no canted axles or bending axles. etc

 

[TRE]

The short version: these are the best scouting rules in the country:

http://northwest.nsbsa.org/Portals/88/2016_Council_PWD_Rules.pdf

And ... I just noticed those rules were posted with my comments visible!! LOL. Well - I guess everyone can get a glimpse of how I approach the rules.

Long version.

I'm passionate about this. So I'm going to get on my soapbox for this one. Anyone that is sensitive about this stuff, might was well just skip this ...

First off, the BASX and SS NPWDRL rules are terrible for scout racing. Anything that specifies a minimum wheel weight will require teardown to enforce and will inevitably lead to a kid getting a win stripped away and hard feelings. No reason at all to go there. BASX also unnecessarily restricts a lot of possible creative designs with rules intended to disallow fenders.

The Box stocks rules would be a ok starting point. Those rules needed some work the last time I read them and generated a number of clarifying questions on the board. League racing can get by with some of that because eventually everyone comes to general understanding after a couple months of racing. But for scout racing where its generally a one time event, there's a couple things that need to be tightened up (which they may have been ... I haven't checked in a while.)

However, to start I would recommend you write down and stick (as best you can) to a handful of principles. For example:

1. All rules must be enforceable.
2. Rules must not require teardowns to enforce
3. Rules should be focused on ensuring the cars run correctly on the track and do not endanger or inhibit other cars.
4. In general, allow things that a youth can do with simple tools.

These are just examples. You can come up with your own, but I think #1 and #2 should be the bedrock of all scouting rules.

Once you have these principles, then most of the major rule issues begin snap into place. At the very least you can start to have objective discussions about issues with less emotion. So, again for example, lets look at a couple of issues in light of the above principles.

Wheel Bases
Kids can drill holes with common tools. Therefore extending wheel bases is allowed. It also enables creative designs that would be limited by the slots.

Axles
Preventing aftermarket axles cannot be enforced, therefore not a rule. You could enforce it to a degree if you required the use of the slots and visible access to the slots.

Requiring 4 (or more) wheels
4 wheels are required to prevent the car from coming off the track. Optionally, you could allow a guide pin in place of the 4th wheel, but that would needlessly complicate the rules.

Requiring 4 wheels touching
Making all 4 wheels touch is difficult and does nothing to ensure the car runs correctly on the track. Kids can purposely drill a lifted wheel with no special tooling.

Washers
Washer material is cheap and easy to apply. Therefore - Allowed.

Wheels
Lots of restrictions you can add here and stay within principles but what you CANNOT do is specify a minimum weight. That would require tear down to enforce. Most restrictions are designed to prevent pricey aftermarket wheels which is understandable. But there are lots of degrees of strictness in this area if you want to open things up for some reasonably prices aftermarket parts.

You get the idea. Hope this helps and good luck with your rules.

+1

 

[Gtdhw]

Also in wheels no lathing, hole drilling seam removal ok but no rounding the wheels etc. Again not everyone has a lather laying around

I bought a simple wheel shaver from the local scout store. Simple hand tool, that anyone can pick up. Also built a home made concentric gauge out of a $20 gauge and a block of wood. We were able to get all 20 wheels that we used this year to a roundness less then .0005, and no lathe was used. Even though we did no real thickness "shaving", just minor true-ing, the boys learned a ton using both tools.

 

[Vitamin K]

What Lightninboy said. I have come to feel that the NSC rules are the best you can find for Scout races, and I wish they were used more widely. I cribbed heavily off of them when I helped our District update our rules.