“Graphite-Coated PRO Super Speed Grooved Axles” = slower times??

[mp3fcs]

Hi friends! I’m new to this forum, and am excited to hear opinions, and suggestions from anyone willing to offer their input.

My son just recently had his Pack Derby where he was the second fastest overall by a very slim margin. The Council Derby is coming up in a couple weeks, so we’re trying to tweak a couple things to see if we can improve on the speed a little bit before the next race.

We have an old wooden track in the basement we’ve been using for testing. His car is averaging around 2.38 seconds on that track after 108 races (36 in each of 3 lanes).

We recently purchased some “Graphite-Coated PRO Super Speed Grooved Axles” to try out on his car. Previously we had just been using the axles that came in the kit (removed the burs, sanded…etc.). We put the new axles on, added a little extra graphite powder, and started testing again. To our surprise, the car was slower. MUCH slower. Average times increased to around 2.45 to 2.49.

The car did have a slight pull to the left with the box axles, and also with the new “Graphite-Coated PRO Super Speed Grooved Axles”. Because these new axles are perfectly straight, and the drilled hole is also straight, turning the axle to tune the alignment didn’t make much difference.

We then put one of the box axles that wasn't perfectly straight back on the front to tune the alignment slightly, and the times went back down a bit, but now we’re averaging around 2.41, which is still a bit higher than when we were using all 4 box axles.

I contacted the company we purchased the “Graphite-Coated PRO Super Speed Grooved Axles” from, and they informed us that the axles were a slightly larger diameter than the standard BSA axles to reduce wobble. They suggested that we may need to break the axles in because of that. We did dozens of races with the new axles, which I would think is probably more “breaking-in” than most people do that don’t have access to a practice track, but still can’t get the times back to what we were running with the standard BSA axles.

I do have a treadmill we could try, although I’ve seen many posts from people saying “Do NOT use a treadmill!” Which leads me to another question. Why shouldn’t we use a treadmill? And again, after dozens of races, should we even need to use a treadmill?

I’m hoping someone here has experienced similar results with “Graphite-Coated PRO Super Speed Grooved Axles”, and might possibly have some tricks and tips for using them. Any other suggestions for squeezing out a little extra speed on his car would be very much appreciated.

Thank you!!!

 

[Mojo Racing]

Welcome mp3.

I remember when I used to think bought axles were perfectly straight too.

Okay... as for the graphite coated axles... I ran a set of those when I first started racing, and yeah... I wish I hadn't spent that money. They are not as fast as many of the graphites out there. DD4H sells the best graphite there is, but if you don't have time, get some Hob-E-Lub from Hobby Lobby.

If you are thinking of using a treadmill, just hook your car behind your regular passenger car and take it for a spin, it will be faster. <----- This is a joke that I tell my cub parents when I give presentations to the packs. The treadmill will eat your wheels on the car, making them useless..

If you are allowed to use aftermarket axles (as it seems with the graphite axles), get a good set of stainless axles and a good graphite. Put a polish on those axles, and when you graphite them, they will be lightning fast.

Good luck!

 

[mp3fcs]

Welcome mp3.

"I remember when I used to think bought axles were perfectly straight too."
"get some Hob-E-Lub from Hobby Lobby."
"If you are allowed to use aftermarket axles (as it seems with the graphite axles), get a good set of stainless axles and a good graphite. Put a polish on those axles, and when you graphite them, they will be lightning fast."
Good luck!

Thanks Mojo!
- I don’t know for sure that they are perfectly straight….they just seemed straighter than the box axles we were using because on a flat surface, the axles by themselves seemed to roll smoothly in a circle.
-We’ve been using Tube-O-Lube from the Scout Shop, and we did add graphite to the axles that were already “coated”. I’m not familiar with the differences between that and Hob-E-Lube. I figured they were pretty much the same thing.
-Yes, we can use aftermarket axles, but we have to use BSA wheels, and are allowed to have 1 wheel raised.

 

[Mojo Racing]

yeah... all graphites are not created equally. LOL There can be HUGE time differences for each different brand of graphite.

Funny story - not to the dad of the cub though - I was coaching a cub and instructed the dad to stop on the way home at a Hobby Lobby to get some Hob-E-Lub so he can graphite his car during the week before the race. I get a call from him the morning of the race, and two of his wheels wont spin 3 revs after the initial spin. I was like... "Did you graphite?" "Yeah! I just finished, but they have been getting slower and slower all week." I ask, "Did you get your Hob-e-Lub wet or something?" "Ohhhh... no... we didn't go by Hobby Lobby, we went to Lowe's on the way home." "okayyyyy... what kind of graphite is THAT?" "Key and Lock graphite! " I about lost it... I was like, "All that work your son did at my place, and you killed the car with that ####?!?!?!?"

 

[mp3fcs]

[QUOTE="and you killed the car with that ####?!?!?!?"[/QUOTE]
Good to know! I'll steer clear of that.

What about a bent axle for the front steering axle? If I get the car running as straight as I want it to go, is there any extra advantage to using a bent axle?

 

[Rebel Racer]

Hi friends! I’m new to this forum, and am excited to hear opinions, and suggestions from anyone willing to offer their input.

My son just recently had his Pack Derby where he was the second fastest overall by a very slim margin. The Council Derby is coming up in a couple weeks, so we’re trying to tweak a couple things to see if we can improve on the speed a little bit before the next race.

We have an old wooden track in the basement we’ve been using for testing. His car is averaging around 2.38 seconds on that track after 108 races (36 in each of 3 lanes).

We recently purchased some “Graphite-Coated PRO Super Speed Grooved Axles” to try out on his car. Previously we had just been using the axles that came in the kit (removed the burs, sanded…etc.). We put the new axles on, added a little extra graphite powder, and started testing again. To our surprise, the car was slower. MUCH slower. Average times increased to around 2.45 to 2.49.

The car did have a slight pull to the left with the box axles, and also with the new “Graphite-Coated PRO Super Speed Grooved Axles”. Because these new axles are perfectly straight, and the drilled hole is also straight, turning the axle to tune the alignment didn’t make much difference.

We then put one of the box axles that wasn't perfectly straight back on the front to tune the alignment slightly, and the times went back down a bit, but now we’re averaging around 2.41, which is still a bit higher than when we were using all 4 box axles.

I contacted the company we purchased the “Graphite-Coated PRO Super Speed Grooved Axles” from, and they informed us that the axles were a slightly larger diameter than the standard BSA axles to reduce wobble. They suggested that we may need to break the axles in because of that. We did dozens of races with the new axles, which I would think is probably more “breaking-in” than most people do that don’t have access to a practice track, but still can’t get the times back to what we were running with the standard BSA axles.

I do have a treadmill we could try, although I’ve seen many posts from people saying “Do NOT use a treadmill!” Which leads me to another question. Why shouldn’t we use a treadmill? And again, after dozens of races, should we even need to use a treadmill?

I’m hoping someone here has experienced similar results with “Graphite-Coated PRO Super Speed Grooved Axles”, and might possibly have some tricks and tips for using them. Any other suggestions for squeezing out a little extra speed on his car would be very much appreciated.

Thank you!!!

yeah... all graphites are not created equally. LOL There can be HUGE time differences for each different brand of graphite.

Funny story - not to the dad of the cub though - I was coaching a cub and instructed the dad to stop on the way home at a Hobby Lobby to get some Hob-E-Lub so he can graphite his car during the week before the race. I get a call from him the morning of the race, and two of his wheels wont spin 3 revs after the initial spin. I was like... "Did you graphite?" "Yeah! I just finished, but they have been getting slower and slower all week." I ask, "Did you get your Hob-e-Lub wet or something?" "Ohhhh... no... we didn't go by Hobby Lobby, we went to Lowe's on the way home." "okayyyyy... what kind of graphite is THAT?" "Key and Lock graphite! " I about lost it... I was like, "All that work your son did at my place, and you killed the car with that ####?!?!?!?"

yeah... all graphites are not created equally. LOL There can be HUGE time differences for each different brand of graphite.

Funny story - not to the dad of the cub though - I was coaching a cub and instructed the dad to stop on the way home at a Hobby Lobby to get some Hob-E-Lub so he can graphite his car during the week before the race. I get a call from him the morning of the race, and two of his wheels wont spin 3 revs after the initial spin. I was like... "Did you graphite?" "Yeah! I just finished, but they have been getting slower and slower all week." I ask, "Did you get your Hob-e-Lub wet or something?" "Ohhhh... no... we didn't go by Hobby Lobby, we went to Lowe's on the way home." "okayyyyy... what kind of graphite is THAT?" "Key and Lock graphite! " I about lost it... I was like, "All that work your son did at my place, and you killed the car with that ####?!?!?!?"

Great story mojo... just out of curiosity what did you do after you found out the car was bound up? How did the car perform?

 

[Mojo Racing]

I had tube-o-lube that I brought for him... he spent 20 minutes trying to grind all that other stuff out and getting the Tube-o-lube in...

He finished second still, but that car was much slower after that.

 

[Mojo Racing]

[QUOTE="and you killed the car with that ####?!?!?!?"

Good to know! I'll steer clear of that.

What about a bent axle for the front steering axle? If I get the car running as straight as I want it to go, is there any extra advantage to using a bent axle?[/QUOTE]

Yes! Bend that front axle and give it steer... you will see changes as you test by adding or taking steer out of a car. I found that I have to give an extra inch for wood tracks than I do for aluminum... for your testing, start with 5 inches of steer over 4' and work from there.

 

[Rebel Racer]

Good to know! I'll steer clear of that.

What about a bent axle for the front steering axle? If I get the car running as straight as I want it to go, is there any extra advantage to using a bent axle?

Yes! Bend that front axle and give it steer... you will see changes as you test by adding or taking steer out of a car. I found that I have to give an extra inch for wood tracks than I do for aluminum... for your testing, start with 5 inches of steer over 4' and work from there.[/QUOTE]
This is good advice!

 

[Rebel Racer]

I would also like to add a simple rear alignment check to this if you haven’t done so already.

 

[Mojo Racing]

shhhhhhh.... don't tell anybody that I told you.

 

[mp3fcs]

I would also like to add a simple rear alignment check to this if you haven’t done so already.

Still fairly new to pwd racing. What is your preferred method to do a rear alignment check?

 

[Rebel Racer]

Still fairly new to pwd racing. What is your preferred method to do a rear alignment check?

A simple test would be to roll the car forward and reverse making certain the wheels migrate away from the body in both directions. Do this on a smooth flat surface.

 

[mp3fcs]

A simple test would be to roll the car forward and reverse making certain the wheels migrate away from the body in both directions

Got it. Thank you.

 

[Rebel Racer]

If you want a better explanation in fine detail... use the search option and type in How to perform an alignment check posted by the member lightning boy

 

[Thinkin'Bout Racin]

A simple test would be to roll the car forward and reverse making certain the wheels migrate away from the body in both directions. Do this on a smooth flat surface.

I am not a pro, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express this last year. ....

A step up on the rear alignment test is the slow roll with a speed square. Check for the lightin boy video on this. This method while not exact, can do a very good job of getting the rear aligned to near perfect. It just may take some time.

Stay away from the treadmill as covered above (I have been down that same path too). If the aftermarket axles are allowed follow the advice above about the 92 or 93 tx axles. I will also agree that the Hob-e-lube is a solid second choice for graphite behind the zero friction from DD4H. Third choice on graphite might be fromMax Velocity. Fourth choice on graphite is anything else, but don't expect to win using the fourth choice.

Yes bend the DFW axle and set the steer to about 5" over four feet. It may seem like a lot, but the car will be stable and not rub off speed by bouncing back and forth. Search for Railrunning here and you will have a better understanding of the bent front axle.

Good luck!

 

[mp3fcs]

Yes! Bend that front axle and give it steer... you will see changes as you test by adding or taking steer out of a car. I found that I have to give an extra inch for wood tracks than I do for aluminum... for your testing, start with 5 inches of steer over 4' and work from there.

This is good advice![/QUOTE]

We've never used a bent axle for my son's cars. We do drill the axle holes though. Will a bent axle fit into a straight drilled hole?

 

[Rebel Racer]

Not sure what happened here, mojo’s quote...
Anyhow. The axle should be inserted in the hole all the way to the bend.
A simple way to do this
Take your straight axle and insert into wheel.
Hold axle firmly in place with your index finger on the outer hub side of the wheel.
With a fine tipped sharpie make a clean line where the axle comes out the inner hub.
Remove axle. This is where you want your bend. Score the axle at this line. An easy way to do this(at least for me) is to chuck the axle in a drill press. I use a fine triangular file laying flat to the drill press table and bring the table up to the point where the file matches exactly where the line on the axle mates with the edge of the file. While hold the file firmly to the table apply gentle pressure to the spinning axle until you have a nice clean score. Don’t go to deep... just deep enough to allow for a a crisp and clean bend at this point. Polish the axle at this time and remove the sharp edges.
Now that you have this score you can place your axle in a vice and tap the axle gently to the desired bend you would like. Don’t over bend the axle to the point where you have to force it through the wheel bore...
Now that you have the axle bent where you want it you can install it in your car. Leave a small gap between the inner hub and the body of your car. I like .01 as a gap for the front, just my opinion.
Just so you understand, this is how I do this but there are other methods. Maybe one of the pros would be willing to share another way of doing this.
Hope this helps!

 

[Thinkin'Bout Racin]

Not sure what happened here, mojo’s quote...
Anyhow. The axle should be inserted in the hole all the way to the bend.
A simple way to do this
Take your straight axle and insert into wheel.
Hold axle firmly in place with your index finger on the outer hub side of the wheel.
With a fine tipped sharpie make a clean line where the axle comes out the inner hub.
Remove axle. This is where you want your bend. Score the axle at this line. An easy way to do this(at least for me) is to chuck the axle in a drill press. I use a fine triangular file laying flat to the drill press table and bring the table up to the point where the file matches exactly where the line on the axle mates with the edge of the file. While hold the file firmly to the table apply gentle pressure to the spinning axle until you have a nice clean score. Don’t go to deep... just deep enough to allow for a a crisp and clean bend at this point. Polish the axle at this time and remove the sharp edges.
Now that you have this score you can place your axle in a vice and tap the axle gently to the desired bend you would like. Don’t over bend the axle to the point where you have to force it through the wheel bore...
Now that you have the axle bent where you want it you can install it in your car. Leave a small gap between the inner hub and the body of your car. I like .01 as a gap for the front, just my opinion.
Just so you understand, this is how I do this but there are other methods. Maybe one of the pros would be willing to share another way of doing this.
Hope this helps!

This is good advise...I have attached a couple of pictures that might help.

I would add that for graphite the wheel gaps can be a bit larger than for oil. We just made our first attempts at oil, so most of our experiences have been with graphite. I would start at about 0.020". +\- with the wheel gap. See what the car likes and adjust from there.

How much to bend the front axle ...there has been a lot debated in the past. I have found that each car may like a little different bend based on weighting and alignment. A good place to start is between 5 degrees and 8 degrees. These bends will fit thru the bore without damaging it. 10 degrees is about the max bend that will fit thru the bore depending on bore diameter.

The first picture is of something I was sent by someone around here. The second is of a simple design that I came up with using a straight edge and a protractor. While this won't be perfect, it can get you close. Just place your bent axle on the paper for reference.

 

[txchemist]

Here is some data from 3 different places, DD4H, Max-V, and Doc Jobe.
Even though they jump around a lot, the relative speeds are mostly correct. Best data is from DD4H because the cars were built much faster to begin with and other variables controlled much better.
I have new Cubs getting up over 26 sec. spin times with DD4H graphite. John even gives Max-V a better rating than they give themselves. I think the difference is better bore and axle prep before the graphite.