A new proposal for the 2016 Mid-America Rules

[Vitamin K]

This came up on a thread about a different Scout race...

You know a lot of scout families think the Mid America rules are to lenient and take away from the basic concept of PWD, but those rules were made to ease in inspection of 500 plus cars and to help ensure a pretty fair and level field.

I probably fall into the "a lot of scout families…" category, so this got me thinking.

I do understand the challenge of having to tech-in several hundred cars in a short period of time. That's daunting. So, to summarize, it seems like the (current) basis for legal wheels is "7.5mm width, all lettering and tread-bumps present." And that's about it. (Ok, there's no H or V cutting either, but that's not hard to check).

Now, it seems to me that this does fulfill the requirement of being simple to check. Simple visual inspection plus maybe a caliper check of each wheel.

On the topic of ensuring a level playing field, however...ehhh. It ensures a level playing field provided you either own (and are good with) a precision lathe, or want to spend 45-50 dollars per car on your wheels from a vendor. Because, in practice, you can leave the tread width, lettering and bumps intact and still get the wheel hollowed out to a wispy thin shell that weighs less than 1.2 grams, if you have the resources to do so.

Now, this isn't a new argument, so I won't expand on that further. Instead, I propose a modification to the rules to make things a little friendlier to your average dad-and-son garage team builder: Remove the tread width requirement.

At first blush, this makes things worse, right? You're opening the door to even more wheel mods that are going to up the arms race even further, right?

"Wrong," I hold forth. By removing this requirement, you actually level the playing field for your home-builder teams.

The reason is simple: It's a lot easier to lighten a wheel by removing the tread than it is to lighten the wheel and leave the tread intact. So by forcing the tread to remain intact, you aren't leveling the playing field, you're actually restricting the improvements to those with access to specialized machinery.

The next argument is that if you allow BSA-razors than you're going to boost the arms race again, as everybody goes to razors and the cars get crazy fast. Well, again I would urge you not to be so fast in this claim. As an example, here's a comparison between some products from a proven vendor. This one is a weight-reduced "fat" wheel (with all markings intact) and this one is an outlaw cut. Note that both claim the same speed increase (about .09 seconds). So it's not that you're making the cars faster overall. You're just letting more people make fast cars.

The only other argument I can think of would be that now builders are going to have to get new wheels for their cars, and that the ones that they ran in their Scout races are no longer going to be competitive. However, I would posit that the vast majority of scout races would not allow the sort of wheels you see available for the Mid-Americas. And if your Pack rules already allow you to run Nitros, then you're already set.

I'll close this will saying that I think the Mid-Americas are a great event and that Greg is a great guy and one of the hardest working men in Pinewood Derby today. This post is an effort to find a happy medium in what I see as a weakness in the current ruleset. Regardless of what the Mid-America council ultimately decides, I think my family will still send cars. Thanks for making this event available to the Scouting and Pinewood communities.

 

[derbychip]

The "outlaw cut" wheel you refer to the lettering and bumps are removed, thus you would be changing more than the wheel width rule. And to make the wheel that you linked there from DD4H, you would need a lathe or purchase that whee, no different that now, and I would bet if the rules would allow such modification John and other venders would create even better wheels to fuel the demand.

I'm biased but the current MA rules are tough to beat, if you don't have the resources to get the best parts to the rules at least your sure you were beat by a car within the rules.. Not wondering or accusing the ones who finished better of cheating

 

[Vitamin K]

The "outlaw cut" wheel you refer to the lettering and bumps are removed, thus you would be changing more than the wheel width rule. And to make the wheel that you linked there from DD4H, you would need a lathe or purchase that whee, no different that now, and I would bet if the rules would allow such modification John and other venders would create even better wheels to fuel the demand.

I'm aware that the Outlaw wheel I linked to has lettering and bumps removed. However, the point I was trying to make is that lathed fat wheel technology is on par with razor "outlaw" wheels, even with the markings removed. In other words, allowing racers to run BSA razors would not put them over wheels that are currently being used for the Mid-America. An outlaw wheel with lettering intact would go even further in advancing my argument.

I would posit that you can make a lettering-intact outlaw wheel with home tools (drill press, chisel, sander). Can the vendors make a better outlaw wheel than you can? Absolutely! And I don't see it as a bad thing for space to exist for vendors to shine. But it would still put the home-builder in the same ballpark, as opposed to 'nowhere close.'

Example: http://bit.ly/1KpAjSC (Warning, links to other forum. Click ye not if you suffer allergies.)

I'm biased but the current MA rules are tough to beat, if you don't have the resources to get the best parts to the rules at least your sure you were beat by a car within the rules.. Not wondering or accusing the ones who finished better of cheating

For the sake of clarity, I have never accused any participants in the Mid-America of cheating. Surely, there is no shame in following the rules as written. Those that have done well in the Mid-America under the current rules are to be commended. My point is that the rules as written do not provide the sort of level playing field that one would ideally like to see in a Scout race.

 

[derbychip]

Are you a politician by chance? You like to make a debate over every topic

Anyways,
The link to derbytalk about making razer wheels, interesting yes practical no...

Ask yourself this... How many "average" scout dads/sons really take the effort it takes to compete within any ruleset? Very few

Now how many would spend the $30-40 on wheels that would at least put them in the ballpark? A third

And how many would spend $50 in the pro shaver and mandrel then spend a couple hours to make a wheel? Less than a few, not practical

 

[Vitamin K]

Are you a politician by chance? You like to make a debate over every topic

I do not currently hold or pursue political office.

The link to derbytalk about making razer wheels, interesting yes practical no...

Ask yourself this... How many "average" scout dads/sons really take the effort it takes to compete within any ruleset? Very few

Now how many would spend the $30-40 on wheels that would at least put them in the ballpark? A third

And how many would spend $50 in the pro shaver and mandrel then spend a couple hours to make a wheel? Less than a few, not practical

I don't know, I'd like to think that there are a sizable number of hobbyists who would like to see what they can do with what tools they've got lying around as opposed to dropping 40-50 bucks on something that somebody else has made. Lots of Scout-level dads go through the "Derbyworx phase" before jumping to more expensive tools and parts.

I think your numbers are very speculative.

Numbers aside, here are two counter-questions I'd present to you:

- Would the rule change hurt anybody?

- Why not allow more creativity for those that want to explore non-purchasing options?

 

[derbychip]

I can basically answer both questions with the same answer, Why fix what is not broken, MA is working, the increasing numbers yearly prove this.

I have all the derbyworx tools, would I of purchased them knowing that for a lot less financial investment I could of bought far superior lathed wheels and been legal. No, but our pack was "box parts" rules and even though they couldn't enforce them we complied

 

[Vitamin K]

I can basically answer both questions with the same answer, Why fix what is not broken, MA is working, the increasing numbers yearly prove this.

I have all the derbyworx tools, would I of purchased them knowing that for a lot less financial investment I could of bought far superior lathed wheels and been legal. No, but our pack was "box parts" rules and even though they couldn't enforce them we complied

That answer doesn't address either question.

I outlined what I see as the 'brokenness' (perhaps 'weakness' would be more appropriate) in the current rules in my initial post. If you don't agree with them, that's fine, but I don't see the point in restating that argument.

My mention of DW tools was not a call that people should run out and get them in lieu of other parts, but that many Scouter families already have them, and thus would be able to make use of them. Or, even if they did not, I feel that ways to cut wheels down to home-made razors without a 500 dollar lathe could be devised. As good as professional? Of course not. But still far faster than any other options available.

 

[derbychip]

So let me get this straight, you would like razor wheels to be legal in a scout race because some could possibly make a crude version at home

 

[Kinser Racing]

This is the NPWDRL-Derbydad4hire-Pinewood Derby Online forum! /images/boards/smilies/wave.gif

 

[KTMracer]

Fair Warning: This is off topic.

I'll admit, I've never actually looked around on the derby talk website. I started browsing through that topic and thought: "Hmm, kinda interesting." And then I saw the picture of the fresh hub being pushed into what looks to be a drum sander with a wore out 120 grit paper. I died a little inside. I examine my bores through a microscope and if anything whatsoever is off I clean them a Microbrush, pipe cleaners, and a DD4H No Scratch wheel bore applicator. A little Loctite might actually help his bores. Possibly fill in some of those craters he's putting in them. He should probably tune those on a treadmill. Melt the bore back to a smoother surface. This is why this site is legit and derby talk is for scout dads who still can't figure out why their DerbyWorx tuned wheels aren't enough to help them win their pack.

 

[Vitamin K]

So let me get this straight, you would like razor wheels to be legal in a scout race because some could possibly make a crude version at home

I'd like them to be legal in the Mid-America, which puts very minimal restrictions on wheel improvements, because it opens the door to "garage-level" builders to actually be able to effect some tangible improvements on their wheels.

 

[Vitamin K]

Fair Warning: This is off topic. I'll admit, I've never actually looked around on the derby talk website. I started browsing through that topic and thought: "Hmm, kinda interesting." And then I saw the picture of the fresh hub being pushed into what looks to be a drum sander with a wore out 120 grit paper. I died a little inside. I examine my bores through a microscope and if anything whatsoever is off I clean them a Microbrush, pipe cleaners, and a DD4H No Scratch wheel bore applicator. A little Loctite might actually help his bores. Possibly fill in some of those craters he's putting in them. He should probably tune those on a treadmill. Melt the bore back to a smoother surface. This is why this site is legit and derby talk is for scout dads who still can't figure out why their DerbyWorx tuned wheels aren't enough to help them win their pack.

For clarification, the hubs were originally ground down in the first version of the tutorial. Later (in the same thread), it was determined that performance was much better if the hubs were left intact and, instead, inset into the body. The original poster did return and annotate his post to let people know this.

 

[561 racing]

Damn it DD4H I keep hitting the ignore button on this troll but I'm still seeing his post. If you want to run unlimited wheels at Mid America you can, it's called the league race. VK I'm not saying that I don't like you, but if you were on life support I would unplug your machine so I could charge my phone. Don't you have a car to build or are you looking for another sorry excuse!!!

 

[TRE]

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Vitamin K]

Damn it DD4H I keep hitting the ignore button on this troll but I'm still seeing his post. If you want to run unlimited wheels at Mid America you can, it's called the league race.

Hello 561, I had a feeling you'd hop on this thread. Welcome aboard. I'm not trolling, by the way. I'm offering a genuine proposal with legitimate reasoning that I have defined earlier in the thread.

Maybe you'd be interested in answering my two questions that I posted to Derbychip ( EDIT: Not sure why I wrote Bracketracer. Apologies. ) . I'm still awaiting his response.

They were:

- Would the rule change hurt anybody?

- Why not allow more creativity for those that want to explore non-purchasing options?

Also, note that I am proposing a modification to be allowed to BSA wheels only (with lettering and tread markings intact). This would not open the door to acrylic or custom turned wheels, nor would it allow needle axles or bearings. The only change would be to permit builders to reduce the tread width on their wheels.

VK I'm not saying that I don't like you, but if you were on life support I would unplug your machine so I could charge my phone. Don't you have a car to build or are you looking for another sorry excuse!!!

My car should be ready to go for the PINKS race with Chips this coming July.

 

[Mojo Racing]

My car should be ready to go for the PINKS race with Chips this coming July.

IT IS PINKS AGAIN?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

 

[Vitamin K]

My car should be ready to go for the PINKS race with Chips this coming July.

IT IS PINKS AGAIN?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

I thought it was. I don't actually want to take anybody's car (on the off chance that I win), but he has the rights to mine if he wins (assuming he actually wants it).

 

[derbychip]

- Would the rule change hurt anybody?

- Why not allow more creativity for those that want to explore non-purchasing options?

Changing the wheel rules to that degree would hurt the numbers participating the following year. If you want to get creative go ahead. You can use many of those same tools you mentioned to make a "do it yourself" lightened fat wheel,

Also, note that I am proposing a modification to be allowed to BSA wheels only (with lettering and tread markings intact). This would not open the door to acrylic or custom turned wheels, nor would it allow needle axles or bearings. The only change would be to permit builders to reduce the tread width on their wheels.

.

The wheel you posted a link too had the lettering and bumps gone as well as the link to make a do it yourself wheel did

 

[Vitamin K]

- Would the rule change hurt anybody?

- Why not allow more creativity for those that want to explore non-purchasing options?

Changing the wheel rules to that degree would hurt the numbers participating the following year.

Why would that hurt the numbers of participants? I think I have established that 1) None of the options previously open to builders have been revoked and 2) Those that have invested in internally lightened "fat wheels" have not lost their competitive edge for them. Would the appearance of a few thin-wheeled cars spark a mass exodus? I think you might need to expand on the details behind your reasoning there.

If you want to get creative go ahead. You can use many of those same tools you mentioned to make a "do it yourself" lightened fat wheel,

If you know of some good ways to lighten a wheel without narrowing the tread, and still keep the wheel rolling true, without employing a precision lathe, I'd honestly like to know them. What the current ruleset does, in essence, is say "We're taking away this method of wheel improvement that can be done easily and (relatively) inexpensively, but we're allowing this other method of wheel improvement that requires expensive machinery to do."

Also, note that I am proposing a modification to be allowed to BSA wheels only (with lettering and tread markings intact). This would not open the door to acrylic or custom turned wheels, nor would it allow needle axles or bearings. The only change would be to permit builders to reduce the tread width on their wheels.

The wheel you posted a link too had the lettering and bumps gone as well as the link to make a do it yourself wheel did

I did, because I was demonstrating that, even with letters and bumps removed, the "Outlaw" wheels are not claimed to be faster than the Nitro wheels.

I did clarify, in this thread, that any homemade razor wheels would need to include letters and bumps, just as all other Mid-America wheels do.

I'm aware that the Outlaw wheel I linked to has lettering and bumps removed. However, the point I was trying to make is that lathed fat wheel technology is on par with razor "outlaw" wheels, even with the markings removed. In other words, allowing racers to run BSA razors would not put them over wheels that are currently being used for the Mid-America. An outlaw wheel with lettering intact would go even further in advancing my argument.

 

[BulldogRacing]

Holy Cow! I feel like I'm back in a introduction to debate class. I'm going to comment on this from my blue collar construction remodel back ground. I have had 15 years experience bidding remodel work and kitchen and bathroom work. In about 5 min I can evaluate how a customer will be to work with on a project from concept to completion. If I were to spend 5 min in V.K's living room discussing a project I think I would run from the job. Dude, you scare the crap out of me. You sound like the most legalistic argumentative man I have ever had the displeasure of reading from. I'm not a real well written fellow, and I find myself re reading many of your paragraphs to simply follow the root of the issue. I agree with Derby chip, I think you sound like a politician. Back to my construction experience. I have worked for some people who will argue everything possible. I believe you find pleasure in the attention you receive from this. Every good story needs a villain and I believe you try and fill that role, and I believe you are a great debater. In fact if cars ran on the quality of argument you would kick Bullets butt next month. These same customers who tell me how to do my job better also will argue how a flat head screwdriver is better then a 18 volt lithim Ion Dewalt impact drill with a square drive. many of these same know -it- alls will have half finished duct taped, DIY projects littered through out their homes. The worst ever was a very high educated college professor who knew everything. This man had the least amount of common sense I had ever dealt with. I have heard you reference how expensive things are with great frequency. I feel you are trying to build a car with as little financial investment as possible. I can respect that. I can also attest that you could buy the most expensive tools and parts and still suck at building a fast car. We are supposed to be trying to build cars that compete with the very fastest and best built in the nation! Here at NPWDRL as well as MA's you have kids and dads who have access to the finest tools and talents. You will need to invest much time and much money to be among the best in the nation at damn near anything. PWD is no different. Why must it need to cater to spending a small amount to be competitive. It's o.k that it costs money. Hell, you can build an "out of the parts" car and enter, it's all good. Just don't think you'll be on the first page. A DIY television show will show a full remodel happen in a 30 min segment of T.V. This is false. PWD is a hell of a hard hill to climb. I can't believe the level this thing has pushed me. Dude, quit arguing, be pleasant to others. Some of the nicest guys have reached out to me because I don't act like a know it all. But as I started this rant, I believe you do enjoy the debate and I believe you could argue the fact that the sky aint blue, and you would probably win that argument, but your cars will continue to struggle until you change you attitude. "Attitude is a little thing that makes a big difference."