A new proposal for the 2016 Mid-America Rules

[Vitamin K]

Why would that hurt the numbers of participants? I think I have established that 1) None of the options previously open to builders have been revoked and 2) Those that have invested in internally lightened "fat wheels" have not lost their competitive edge for them. Would the appearance of a few thin-wheeled cars spark a mass exodus?

1) If lettered razors are allowed NO ONE would be competitive running wide wheels of any weight against them, thus rendering the wide wheels obsolete. 2) Everyone who invested in the special MA cut wide wheels would have to scrap them and buy another set of wheels to be competitive so their competitive edge would vaporize. Some families would balk at the expense of buying another set of special wheels that pretty much can't be raced anywhere else and just wouldn't enter. They would have to run in their own, separate, class to maintain the level playing field that you so worship. Which means you need to plead your case directly to MA's ruling body for review.

Ah, actual engagement! Thank you, sir.

1) So, it could be that I'm going off of incorrect data, but judging by vendor claims, a Lettered Nitro wheel is of comparable speed to an /unlettered/ razor wheel. If this is true, then nobody needs to worry about their competitive edge, because they're already running the fastest wheels that they can buy.

2) Assuming my first claim is correct, the second problem evaporates. Nobody need buy new wheels.

As an aside, it does seem like every so often, "new" MA cuts come out that claim to be even faster than last years', so the arms race always gets ratcheted up, regardless of what wheels you've bought. So, it could just be that the "next step" would be professionally lathed, lettered razor wheels, for those that want that incremental edge. Those that stick with last years' Nitros may be a tiny disadvantage, but the gap would be nowhere close to what somebody experiences running "heavy" wheels compared to a typical MA cut for wheels.

Now, if point number one is based on flawed data -- that is, if razor wheels are better in every way than eggshell lightened flat wheels -- then that probably does make my entire rules proposal a flawed one. I'd be happy to receive more data on that topic.

You're quoting data that includes "average" times and "about" car lengths. Pretty rickety math there VK so I can see why you're having trouble making it fit. But as you quoted, the razors are "about" .3 car lengths faster thus proving my point that all wide wheels would be rendered obsolete. No one will want to give up about a third of a car length. If your point is that the speed gap between homemade lettered razors vs professional lettered razors is smaller than homemade ultralight wide wheels vs professional ultralight wide wheels then you are fooling only yourself. Little Johnny and his dad working in their basement will never be able to contour out a wheel to the same extent a professional can do on a lathe whether it's a wide wheel or a razor. Switching to razors doesn't solve anything so it's a moot point but if you must continue this argument then plead your case to the ruling body directly please so we can get back to talking about league racing.

I'm going to concede the argument for now, if truly it is 3 vs 2.7 car lengths. I had actually just looked at the "0.9" seconds for each, which is what I was going off of. It seems like the verbiage in one of those claims needs to change, since both cannot be accurate.

I still do believe that a homemade razor will 'close the gap' better than a a fat wheel can, in terms of homebuilt vs professional, but if there truly exists a 1/3 card length advantage overall, then the argument is probably moot.

Just so you understand though, absolutely nothing in this thread prevents anybody from talking about league racing. There are not a limited number of threads that can be active, and nobody is compelled to opine on this one. Given the extreme lull in posting on any other topics, I'm not certain what league racing topics everyone is so worried to "get back to," but, by all means, get to them. /images/boards/smilies/smile.gif

 

[ngyoung]

Commenting on the OP because I am too lazy to read through all the back and forth...

If the MA's could find a way to limit wheel weight and inspect reliably I would be OK with it. Currently it is a logistical nightmare to do so. Unfortunately I don't think your suggestion is the right answer.

I feel that going to a thin wheel would create an even larger performance gap between a vendor wheel and a "garage dad" version. I am even willing to bet even the current wide wheel nitros would still beat wheels made like you described. Now add a vendor lathe turned version where they can get the edge razor thin, near zero runout, and weight matched.

Proxy car participation is a significant portion of the entries at MA. If you have the most competitive entries all shipping thin wheels you're really raising the chances of damaged wheels. Regardless if it is the builders fault or not, if you have a handful of broken cars it will effect the reputation of the organization. The guys racing them in this league are very fortunate to have someone willing to bend over backwards to go as far as cut replacement wheels or even take apart and reinstall a spare wheel.

 

[Vitamin K]

Proxy car participation is a significant portion of the entries at MA. If you have the most competitive entries all shipping thin wheels you're really raising the chances of damaged wheels. Regardless if it is the builders fault or not, if you have a handful of broken cars it will effect the reputation of the organization. The guys racing them in this league are very fortunate to have someone willing to bend over backwards to go as far as cut replacement wheels or even take apart and reinstall a spare wheel.

The damaged wheels thing is something that I hadn't given much thought, so that could possibly be significant. My thinking is that a polystyrene BSA razor would be more resilient than an acrylic razor, but that's just guesswork on my part.

But anyhow, I'm conceding the point since my data on a professionally lathed razor being comparable to a professionally lathed eggshell seems to be flawed.

 

[ngyoung]

As for the comparable speed advantage that would not stay the same if there was actually a significant national scout race like MA that allowed the outlaw cut. Think about how much the top MA wheels have changed as the event has grown. The current outlaw wheel really hasn't changed because it is rarely used outside of special scout derby races, just using a basic thin wheel more often than not is enough to smoke any other outlaw scout dad cars. Now imagine if the league had a class where you still needed to use a BSA wheel to make a razor wheel from. That would start a lot of innovation in the way those were cut and the speed increase would grow far beyond the current MA wheel.

 

[ngyoung]

Hell I am more than willing to discuss and/or debate until you're blue in the face most of the stuff you bring up on here. I usually don't bother joining in because the thread has already devolved off topic.

This is above and beyond the most active pinewood derby forum. I don't think it all needs to be only about league racing, that is why their are different forum categories. If anything this should be moved out of general discussion and into local racing. Speaking strictly from a web marketing standpoint having some scout discussion or just a wide range of PWD talk helps bring in web traffic to the sight and that is more exposure for the league. You guys are really doing the exact opposite that you should be doing when you see an internet troll posting. You keep feeding it and turn a post into a 3 page long argument. These posts would be pretty short and die off if you'd just never respond to begin with.

Sorry to refer to you as a troll VK but frankly some of your stubbornness to never change your view despite plenty of evidence makes you come off as one. I understand you are trying to find a way to make even the most basic builder have a chance to compete with vendor parts. There is a big difference between theory and actual application. A lot of the theories that you propose have already been a dead horse thoroughly kicked and decayed years ago.

Your current idea for just going all out and having MA allow outlaw cuts is just opening the door for a whole new set of un-intended consequences. Like I said, regardless of shipping, the current vendor outlaw wheels would change and not only exceed the current nitros but even further exceed anything the average person could do at home without a lathe. It would not yield anyone with non-lathe turned and lightened wheels to be more competitive. You would actually make the gap even worse for the kids that don't make outlaw wheels and just send in their car as is.

 

[Vitamin K]

Hell I am more than willing to discuss and/or debate until you're blue in the face most of the stuff you bring up on here. I usually don't bother joining in because the thread has already devolved off topic.

If it's off-topic, it isn't because I decided to make it so. The majority of respondents seem to prefer to avoid the topics and make the discussion about me, personally. Those that actually do engage the issues I've brought up, I make an attempt to respond to fairly.

This is above and beyond the most active pinewood derby forum. I don't think it all needs to be only about league racing, that is why their are different forum categories. If anything this should be moved out of general discussion and into local racing.

Well, that has always been my view, since the forum brands itself as "Pinewood Derby Online" and not "NPWDRL Discussion Online." There seem to be a lot of folks that would disagree, though. I posted it in this forum because it was the one in which another scout race (The BSA World Championships) was being discussed.

Speaking strictly from a web marketing standpoint having some scout discussion or just a wide range of PWD talk helps bring in web traffic to the sight and that is more exposure for the league. You guys are really doing the exact opposite that you should be doing when you see an internet troll posting. You keep feeding it and turn a post into a 3 page long argument. These posts would be pretty short and die off if you'd just never respond to begin with.

I have tried to make the point that if people find my topic objectionable, they are free to dismiss it. I also try not to respond to responses that are merely attacks and not engagement with the topic.

Sorry to refer to you as a troll VK but frankly some of your stubbornness to never change your view despite plenty of evidence makes you come off as one.

My definition of "trolling" would be the practice of posting someplace merely for the purposes of antagonizing people. My purpose is not to antagonize, but to champion ideas. Like I stated before, I support the concepts of the Mid-Americas, and I wish that there were a better way to approach wheel standards. If the rule changed for 2016, I would make homemade razors and run them. Simple as that.

By making the accusation of trolling, you're jumping to a character assessment, and I'd posit that very few people here know me well enough to do so. Likewise, I have no way to assess the character of anybody else here, which is why the only thing I've been attempting to discuss is the actual issues raised.

I understand you are trying to find a way to make even the most basic builder have a chance to compete with vendor parts. There is a big difference between theory and actual application. A lot of the theories that you propose have already been a dead horse thoroughly kicked and decayed years ago.

If you find flaw with my theories, that's fine. I'll admit to imperfect knowledge. However, espousing an incorrect theory is not the same as 'trolling'.

Your current idea for just going all out and having MA allow outlaw cuts is just opening the door for a whole new set of un-intended consequences. Like I said, regardless of shipping, the current vendor outlaw wheels would change and not only exceed the current nitros but even further exceed anything the average person could do at home without a lathe. It would not yield anyone with non-lathe turned and lightened wheels to be more competitive. You would actually make the gap even worse for the kids that don't make outlaw wheels and just send in their car as is.

That's an objective argument and the kind I'd like to see more of. Some of it I agree with, some of it I don't, but I've already outlined my opinions thereof in earlier posts. But, as I already said before, I concede the point that my original assumption of "BSA thin wheel technology should not exceed current eggshell wheel technology" is possibly flawed, so I don't really have a good enough platform to push the argument any more.

 

[derbychip]

possibly flawed

Lol

 

[DerbyDad4Hire]

Do we need a delete VK poll? I understand he has started to get shut down on other forums.

 

[561 racing]

Do we need a delete VK poll? I understand he has started to get shut down on other forums.

I don't think a poll is needed, just look what he is doing to your forum that you worked so hard on.

 

[derbychip]

Brian poll us up at top of this page already

 

[Mister B Racing]

Do we need a delete VK poll? I understand he has started to get shut down on other forums.

Maybe not a full delete of his account maybe limited access.

 

[561 racing]

Maybe an option for 90 day off, if he comes back the same full delete, this way we can concentrate on the fire series!!!

 

[LightninBoy]

This came up on a thread about a different Scout race...

You know a lot of scout families think the Mid America rules are to lenient and take away from the basic concept of PWD, but those rules were made to ease in inspection of 500 plus cars and to help ensure a pretty fair and level field.

I probably fall into the "a lot of scout families…" category, so this got me thinking.

Me too.

I do understand the challenge of having to tech-in several hundred cars in a short period of time. That's daunting. So, to summarize, it seems like the (current) basis for legal wheels is "7.5mm width, all lettering and tread-bumps present." And that's about it. (Ok, there's no H or V cutting either, but that's not hard to check).

Now, it seems to me that this does fulfill the requirement of being simple to check. Simple visual inspection plus maybe a caliper check of each wheel.

On the topic of ensuring a level playing field, however...ehhh. It ensures a level playing field provided you either own (and are good with) a precision lathe, or want to spend 45-50 dollars per car on your wheels from a vendor. Because, in practice, you can leave the tread width, lettering and bumps intact and still get the wheel hollowed out to a wispy thin shell that weighs less than 1.2 grams, if you have the resources to do so.

Now, this isn't a new argument, so I won't expand on that further. Instead, I propose a modification to the rules to make things a little friendlier to your average dad-and-son garage team builder: Remove the tread width requirement.

At first blush, this makes things worse, right? You're opening the door to even more wheel mods that are going to up the arms race even further, right?

I wouldn't argue it makes it worse, but I don't think that would make it much better either.

The Northern Star Council race proves every year that you can run a large super competitive event and disallow lightened wheels.

 

[Vitamin K]

The Northern Star Council race proves every year that you can run a large super competitive event and disallow lightened wheels.

Everything I see about the NSC races, I pretty much like. Makes me wish our council did something like that. I'm trying to get our district to emulate them as far as rules go, but it's been an uphill climb, thus far.

 

[BulldogRacing]

If you're the one in the council trying to get them to change the rules I can see from the way you argue why they would not respond in favor of your tactics. Maybe try and argue to opposite of what you really want, I bet you'll get them to do what you really want because you'll be arrogant enough to cause any man to become an enemy.

 

[Kinser Racing]

Well, given that this is a thread that I started, I don't know what else there was for it to 'contaminate'. As I said before, nobody has to click the link to read the words I write. Nobody has to reply to them.

Well, you are in someone else's house proposing rule changes be made in someone else's house that you dont even happen to be in. Think about it!

 

[HurriCrane Racing]

Ever hear of Parachuting Pussy Cats?!

 

[Kinser Racing]

Ever hear of Parachuting Pussy Cats?!

Very interesting! /images/boards/smilies/biggrin.gif

 

[Kinser Racing]

Do we need a delete VK poll? I understand he has started to get shut down on other forums.

No! We need to keep him here if not just for the entertainment and passion he brings out in others. If we did, someone else would just step in a take his place.

 

[microbrush]

I think that the utopia that VK lives in is not taken far enough to the extreme. I think that the people that volunteer to put on races should eliminate one variable... AIR. Simply stated the cars should run in a vacuum (I like to think outside the box as I am a thinker). This would eliminate many variables that racers have to overcome. It seems doable. It might take longer for the VOLUNTEER's to stage the race, but that is not my problem. I want to race the cheapest car I can and have an even race ( I don't care that the proxy race will cost at least $30 in shipping and entry fee's, I just want to spend 5 dollars on a car or it is not fair).

By the way, I have now accomplished my Sub 3 goal? with all stock parts (granted that tracks are all different, so what is sub 3 anyway?) and now am ready to cut my own outlaw wheels.

Well, I thought that was YOUR goal to run sub 3 on ALL stock Parts before going to the next level. Watch out CHIPS he is sub 3 now will all stock parts as he is now going to make his own wheels for the "new rules MA 2016". Good Luck.

Please Don't Discredit the NSC rules again. Lead is the least of the concern. Do not come on a thread that I started and say:

Sorry, I didn't mean to have this turn into an environmental debate.

No worries. Glad you showed us. I always like seeing new ideas that folks are up to.

I really don't care what you think. I know that you are always the first to respond. Not sure how you are always so fast to respond to anyone.

Everything has a cost. Participate or don't. So far you don't. I have not either. Still waiting on wheels- not my fault. I so far chose to not buy a lathe and rather buy wheels. I have tested cars with my kids and keep improving within the rules that are provided.

It is much better to have a solid set of MEASURABLE rules, than to change them in the zero hour.

I live on planet earth and within the normal constraints of the commoners. If you choose to respond, don't expect a quick responce as my job and family comes first.

Does this sound outlandish? Maybe not to VK, to the rest . . . Yes.

Happy fourth of July and My God Bless America!!!