Beware of the evil one......... ME

[Bw56]

30 years ago I asked my son's scout leader "When is Pinewood Derby?" Now I know. I think the movie Down and Derby is a documentary, not a comedy. Being a machinist I was always in the gray area of the rules reading between the lines. I taught my sons how to build their cars so by the third year they did them 100 percent themselves. It only cost me two belt sanders in the process. Then as a leader holding the race I was dumbfounded when a scout walked up to the table of cars , turned around and asked his dad "WHICH ONE IS OURS." From then on I have a clinic to teach them the basics. Our races are very close and competitive.
Because of my knowledge and experience, five years ago I was asked to be our District Inspector. Sorry Guys. I firmly believe the boys should build the car WITH help. Not handed DAD's car on race day. I HAVE NEVER HAD A BOY KNOWINGLY CHEAT, BEND, BREAK or PUSH THE RULES. I have never heard of a boy searching for and buying high performance parts for his car. I believe the boys can and do have a good time building and racing their own cars.
This year I found teflon washers, machined lightened/undersize wheels, Stretched wheelbases etc on more than one car. Things outlawed in the written rules. Everyone fixed the infractions and raced or raced in an outlaw class against like cars. My favorite one is dad sends mom down and says "trust me, It's legal." It happens every year.
I hate being the one to point out infractions but in the name of fair play it has to be done. As a guy I know we just want to help "a little". As a machinist I can make a lot of cool improvements to stock parts. I was the one that showed Randy at Maximum Velocity how to lighten stock BSA wheels down to about one gram. When we say BSA box stock we mean it. If you can find it on the internet, so can I.
BW56

 

[CivilWarTalk]

Hi BW56!

You should make an interesting addition to these forums, because you are the guy most of us meet on the other side of the table when we go to a scout inspection. I'm sure many members will have some interesting questions for you!

So, let's get the party started as they say!

Where do you fall on the 3 wheels touching versus the 4 wheels touching rule? And I don't mean should we catch a cheater who is trying to break the rules, I'm talking about the spirit of the rule and why it was written.

Some might say that it's just the traditional way to run the cars, others say running on three wheels is unfair for a variety of reasons. Many of us on the forum will fall into the camp of "let cars that run on three wheels race on three wheels". We all know that three wheels touching is faster than four wheels touching, at least generally speaking.

Some of us who are forced to use the four wheels touching rule, and must also inspect cars and pass or fail them for their compliance of the four wheels touching rule, think the restriction of 4 wheels touching should be removed and let cars run on 3 wheels. It's much easier to inspect, it's a faster way to race, and it's a modification that any scout or parent can apply to their car to make it go faster.

The one argument we get back from our councils, other than silence on the issue, is that novice racers might not know about this "trick", so it's unfair. But I argue that many new parent/scout teams don't know about the "trick" of adding graphite to lubricate the axles, and you wouldn't outlaw graphite because novice racers didn't know about that "trick" either would we?

Plus, I believe that this so called "trick" is a great learning experience for the scout. If you dig into it, your scout can learn about friction, rotation, and different states of energy, it's like a beginner's physics lesson.

And if nothing else, Scouting based PWD should be about the learning experience, and that includes the testing, experimenting, and the results.

At least, that's my opinion...

 

[Bw56]

Show me a true scout built car using the slots in the block that has all four wheels on the ground and I'll be truly amazed. And the precision work an eight year old can do to an axle using a drill, file and sandpaper compares to what some of you pay good money for the grooved ones. lol. On the other side when my 38 year old was a wolf, a tiger cub brought a car that ran on two wheels, yea, right. I'm a machinist and it was a challenge for me to get it right. That's when the 3 of 4 must touch rule came into play in our district. We had one that placed the fourth wheel on the back. The fastest car I have built ran on all four in the "proper perspective places*". (Another new rule*) Rail riding is a natural thing for most scout built cars also. One thing we started in our Pack was a parent race to give us guys our own car to go nuts on. The boys got to build their own cars and dad was able to be the example of how to do it. Much better all around. I'm all for finding the speed tricks. I dislike deep pocket racing in scouts. In my clinic I give everyone a tip sheet. I love it when I hear the "dad or grand father will help", And get schooled. When I find a noncompliant car I don't make a scene, I'm more impressed when the car is brought into compliance. That teaches the boys fair play.

 

[Richard C. Moeur]

When my son was a Tiger 6 years ago, we didn't know any better, and he and I stuck the axles in the slots as straight as we could. Turned out the car ran on 3 wheels just due to block warping and a 6-year-old's sense of "straight". Dad did much of the axle work that year (Dunc focused on paint and decals), and the car came in 1st in Pack and 4th in rank at District. If the Pack or District had a "four on the floor" rule (they didn't and don't), we never would have gone anywhere, or know where to start to fix it (other than pounding on the car until all wheels touched...)

Fast forward to my son's first Webelos year. I hosted 6 Pack workshops, but noticed my boy was playing with the other boys more than working on the car ("Daaaad, the paint's not dryyyy!") I told him he'd better get off his duff and start filing and polishing axles, because no one else (especially me) was going to do it for him. Finally, at the last workshop, he grudgingly got out the file, sandpaper, and polish, and got them done.

The result: Pack winner, first in rank at District, and 3rd overall at District. And about all I did was print and laminate the Minecraft face (he designed) on a printer, and "motivate" him to finish.

I agree with Bob, er, Bw56, that the car (at least post-Tiger) should be built mainly by the boy with parental help, and that "buying speed" through aftermarket wheels and axles cheats the boy of the important lesson of learning how the little things that aren't obvious (such as axle prep, alignment, and wheel bore prep) make much more of a difference in success than shape or paint - lessons that become valuable later in life. Also, when a boy shows true pride of ownership earned through meaningful work on the car, it shows, and it counts.

 

[Richard C. Moeur]

Rolling along regarding wheels:

When I took over as District PWD chair, I inherited "must have 4 and only 4 wheels", "3 wheels touching", and min/max wheelbase rules, and kept them for the first year. But then I saw a boy who built a really cool 8-wheeled tank (5 wheels raised) have to pull 4 non-functioning wheels just to meet the rules. Not what was intended.

One year, we eliminated the maximum wheelbase rule, and I quickly noted that boys who used a stock wheelbase (slots, Pack rules, etc.) were at a disadvantage, so we went back to a 4 5/8" maximum. We also eliminated the minimum wheelbase rule, because some racers really wanted to build short-wheelbase cars, and it certainly doesn't give them any advantage (quite the reverse, of course).

Last year (2016) we eliminated the "minimum of 4 wheels" rule, and sure enough one car had three wheels (and a guide pin) and never lost a heat. So for 2017, a minimum of four wheels was reinstated.

The big issue is trying to discourage machined/shaved wheels to keep the boys who run stock-wheel cars (or don't have the resources for modified wheels) competitive. The old method (before my time) was to yank the wheels off the car and weigh them between the completion of racing and awarding of trophies. First, this can damage or destroy a car, and second, it was done after the conclusion of racing (and likely after rank-level trophies) where identifying an out-of-spec car becomes at the least an opportunity for serious disgruntlement for all. That's why we focus on pre-competition verification as best we can, checking against published dimensions and assessing if the axle really did spend part of its life in a BSA tube or box. Can we catch everything? Perhaps not, but as noted above any car with shaved wheels, teflon bushings, or stainless axles is very likely to get a rework request or reassignment to Open-Unpowered class.

Right now, one ongoing issue is that even though we try to encourage all Packs in both Districts to use the District rules (even providing a Word template for their use and customization), some Packs still use their own rules for building and Pack-level racing, which can create problems if their rules allow things the District rules don't. We're going to try even more outreach in the fall to encourage a uniform rules set. Based on our positive experience, we also encourage other Districts to use our rules - Camelback District uses an almost-identical rules set, and the Council is setting up a working group of District PWD staff to encourage information-sharing.

 

[DerbyDad4Hire]

You don't have to buy speed. I can help my son take the parts straight from the kit and in 30 minutes whip 99% of all pinewood derby cars built or bought regardless of the rules that are made to try and "even the playing field." If we are so interested in having the boys do all the work then we need to let the boys run the race too. Let them make the rules and tech the cars in. The adults ruin the experience in most cases by trying to tilt everything to benefit their own child. The adults make ridiculous rule sets to try and slow the fast cars down. Overzealous adults ruin the experience.

 

[Richard C. Moeur]

Much of my assessment is based on the experiences I had as a Cub Scout and within my son's Pack. We're trying to make it so a boy doesn't have to have the entire armada of aftermarket tools to at least be somewhat competitive, while rewarding the boys who take the effort to properly file and polish their axles and work on alignment.

 

[CivilWarTalk]

Okay, I think many racers would agree, the boys should play a major role in building the cars, with the parent being a guiding hand, and only taking charge when dangerous tools are involved.

I'm glad to hear that you are open to racing rules that allow common tricks and well known building methods...

Some districts can be very strict with their rules. In my districts I was questioned about altering my wheelbase because I cut off a bit of the rear of the car and added the same amount to the front end. The wheelbase didn't change, but it was further back then any other car on the track that day. Ultimately cooler heads prevailed and my son was allowed to race.

Last year my younger son wanted to get fancy and build a tank. I gave him some great ideas on how to build the car. Knowing how strict the Council was, I asked then if it would be legal to run an 8 wheeled "tank" car in the race, and at first they told me it would give an unfair advantage. I guess I would have more grip in the turns or something...

Later they told me as long as the extra four didn't touch the track I would be legal.

It's amazing what you hear sometimes....

 

[CivilWarTalk]

Show me a true scout built car using the slots in the block that has all four wheels on the ground and I'll be truly amazed.

Can I vote for this to be the comment of the week?

 

[CivilWarTalk]

Rolling along regarding wheels:

Right now, one ongoing issue is that even though we try to encourage all Packs in both Districts to use the District rules (even providing a Word template for their use and customization), some Packs still use their own rules for building and Pack-level racing, which can create problems if their rules allow things the District rules don't.

I think you've got a decent set of rules here, I mostly approve...

However, would a car with this wheel layout be accepted (Ignoring that you can't check the wheels and axles, or wheelbase)?

From MidAmerica 2015 if I remember correctly...

It seems to meet your rules, but it would probably be bending them in a way you didn't expect....

 

[CivilWarTalk]

When I took over as District PWD chair, I inherited "must have 4 and only 4 wheels", "3 wheels touching", and min/max wheelbase rules, and kept them for the first year. But then I saw a boy who built a really cool 8-wheeled tank (5 wheels raised) have to pull 4 non-functioning wheels just to meet the rules. Not what was intended.

Tank cars, gotta love them!

 

[Richard C. Moeur]

That's a creative and unorthodox way to provide 4 wheels - or 8.

As long as the distance between the farthest wheel centers is less than 4 5/8", it would meet our # of wheels and wheelbase rules. We could modify the rules to say "a minimum of two wheels on each side", but haven't (yet) - and you still might see something just as creative in a different configuration. Trying to avoid wording that is overly-prescriptive or difficult to objectively evaluate such as "wheels shall be in the standard locations" or other stuff like that. May end up being a non-issue.

Also, we really don't care where the wheels are on the car, as long as it complies with max wheelbase. Slots aren't required - in fact, drilling is permitted (we encouraged it in our Pack) for greater strength. But we do require axle tips to be visible (to assist in axle verification) - we publish a guide for installing inspection holes if a boy wants to use drilled axle holes.

 

[CivilWarTalk]

That's a creative and unorthodox way to provide 4 wheels - or 8.

As long as the distance between the farthest wheel centers is less than 4 5/8", it would meet our # of wheels and wheelbase rules. We could modify the rules to say "a minimum of two wheels on each side", but haven't (yet) - and you still might see something just as creative in a different configuration. Trying to avoid wording that is overly-prescriptive or difficult to objectively evaluate such as "wheels shall be in the standard locations" or other stuff like that. May end up being a non-issue.

Also, we really don't care where the wheels are on the car, as long as it complies with max wheelbase. Slots aren't required - in fact, drilling is permitted (we encouraged it in our Pack) for greater strength. But we do require axle tips to be visible (to assist in axle verification) - we publish a guide for installing inspection holes if a boy wants to use drilled axle holes.

That's an interesting requirement... I need to ponder this one...

 

[DerbyDad4Hire]

Also, we really don't care where the wheels are on the car, as long as it complies with max wheelbase. Slots aren't required - in fact, drilling is permitted (we encouraged it in our Pack) for greater strength. But we do require axle tips to be visible (to assist in axle verification) - we publish a guide for installing inspection holes if a boy wants to use drilled axle holes.

I am lost as to why a longer wheel base is illegal.

 

[Skywalker Racing]

I am lost as to why a longer wheel base is illegal.

+1

Why does anyone care what the wheelbase is as long as the wheels don't extend past the 7" body length?

We also eliminated the minimum wheelbase rule, because some racers really wanted to build short-wheelbase cars, and it certainly doesn't give them any advantage (quite the reverse, of course).

That's not always true. Shorter wheelbases can have some advantages.


BTW - I admire what you're trying to do Richard. It is an impossible task to write and enforce rules and make everyone happy.

 

[CivilWarTalk]

It is an impossible task to write and enforce rules and make everyone happy.

Well said...

 

[speed bump]

Sounds like a good rule but wait now it's not. Will rewrite it next year. Too many rules = too many ways to bend them. Keep it simple. Our council makes the rules each year and packs and districts all have the same rules. The council has a pinewood derby board. It consists of pack leaders,volunteers, council men. I am one of those people and we go over the rules and vote on them. Then give those to the council then they put them into effect. One set of rules for everyone. SIMPLE

 

[Bw56]

I knew I would be the popular new kid. The car with three wheels on one side and one on the other with a guide pin would be legal as the way our rules were written for 2017. If the rules don't disallow, it goes down the track.

An average longer wheelbase car does have an advantage over an average stock wheelbase car. The slots provided in the block give an expected wheelbase for the car. Hence that rule. Cutting off one end and applying it to the other end doesn't change the overall wheelbase, just location. Drilling your own holes makes sense. It's easier for anyone (scout) to put a round pin in a round hole unlike a round pin in a three sided hole. BSA needs to make that a standard improvement, holes not slots.

As technology changes, the rules must too. Look where it all started and where it's at today. I used my cnc to make 1 gram wheels. It was an unfair advantage and was never used by a scout. Now against the other dads, that's different. I gave an extra one to Randy at M.V. as he is local to us. Since being the Inspector I have sent the rules to him as a courtesy.

When I teach these scouts to take what they have with their own hands and make it work well, I can feel like I've done my part. By the way, It's been many years since I built a car, it's an addiction, quitting cold turkey was hard. I'm probably going to fall off the wagon soon.

 

[DerbyDad4Hire]

You would be perfect for the list.

 

[CivilWarTalk]

So, ok, new topic to discuss with the new guys!

Three rules....

Graphite is the only Lubricant you can use...
Only dry lubricants may be used....
Any lubricant may be used...

Like it or not the second option is a very popular rule in scout racing, it seems to be slowly replaced with one of the other options.... Some on the forum believe that an oil process that appears dry is legally a dry lubricant. Others disagree....

The graphite rule is becoming more popular, but is ripe to be taken advantage of, even at Mid America we saw cheating with oil in a graphite only class, only careful proceedures can detect oil during a graphite only event....

Any lubricant is a favorite among members of this forum, but it probably puts the graphite crowd at a disadvantage, even more so in longer races with more heats...

Any thoughts!?!