Beware of the evil one......... ME

[LightninBoy]

I've said long ago that oil should be embraced and graphite should be against the rules. Graphite is just nasty.

But I want to challenge the premise ... why regulate the lubrication at all? As long as the lubrication doesn't leak and get on the track and impact other cars (as oil sometimes does and graphite *always* does) ... who cares?

 

[HurriCrane Racing]

I couldn't agree more with you Lightning Boy! The North Star council has some of the best rules I have ever seen for a scout race. I have presented them to our District for consideration.

Graphite is horrible...

 

[Pacfanweb]

Last year (2016) we eliminated the "minimum of 4 wheels" rule, and sure enough one car had three wheels (and a guide pin) and never lost a heat. So for 2017, a minimum of four wheels was reinstated.

Okay, I don't get this.

So you eliminated the "minimum of 4 wheels" rule, then when a car showed up with only 3 wheels, you put brought it back?

What did you think was going to happen when you eliminated it? And also, do you think that car with only 3 wheels wouldn't have still been the fastest if it had another wheel?

Sorry, but that whole scenario doesn't make sense to me. What'd you get rid of the rule for in the first place, if you didn't want a car to show up with 3 wheels? And it has to have something to keep it on the track if there's no wheel there.

 

[Pacfanweb]

So, ok, new topic to discuss with the new guys!

Three rules....

Graphite is the only Lubricant you can use...
Only dry lubricants may be used....
Any lubricant may be used...

Like it or not the second option is a very popular rule in scout racing, it seems to be slowly replaced with one of the other options.... Some on the forum believe that an oil process that appears dry is legally a dry lubricant. Others disagree....

The graphite rule is becoming more popular, but is ripe to be taken advantage of, even at Mid America we saw cheating with oil in a graphite only class, only careful proceedures can detect oil during a graphite only event....

Any lubricant is a favorite among members of this forum, but it probably puts the graphite crowd at a disadvantage, even more so in longer races with more heats...

Any thoughts!?!

"appears dry" is still wet. Look at it with a magnifying glass and you can see the drops of oil.

Now, a lube that dries and leaves a film behind, like any silicone product....that's a dry lube. And they are typically advertised as such.

I would agree with Lightning Boy....why do they even care, as long as there's nothing leaking out of the car?

Even all the race organizers know graphite is ridiculously nasty. Most rules even say something to the effect of "Cars must be lubed before arriving, no graphite is allowed to be added at the facility because it makes a mess and is dangerous on the floors".

Well, if it's that bad, why even have it? Just a dumb rule.

 

[Pacfanweb]

Speaking of dumb rules: The 4 wheel touching has to the top of the list for me. There is not a doubt in my mind that somewhere along the line, some Dad figured it out and his son showed up with a 3 wheeler that beat a kid's car that always won....probably a Cubmaster's son or the race organizer. So rather than embrace this new "trick", they outlawed it, and told everyone else they should as well....so that's what they started doing, and most don't even know why.

If everyone can do it, it's not an advantage. As mentioned before, it's far more likely to end up with a 3 wheeler, especially if you're using the slots.
And regardless of the rules, the people who know how to build and really take an interest in the Derby are going to have the fastest cars no matter what the rules are.....making everyone run 4 down didn't ever magically give some other kids a chance. The same folks who were going to win with 3 wheelers still won with 4 wheelers.

 

[LightninBoy]

I couldn't agree more with you Lightning Boy! The North Star council has some of the best rules I have ever seen for a scout race. I have presented them to our District for consideration.

Best scouting rules in the nation!

I actually lobbied to make graphite illegal in the NSC rules. But settled for language strongly encouraging the use of oil. And to be honest, it just wasn't practical to forbid graphite. Maybe in a few more years ...

 

[Bw56]

I'll follow the rules given to me. As an old wooden track owner and now inspector, Graphite is very dirty. My old track is streaked with it. At our district race the cars using it made a mess if my area and my hands. It seems that if a little is good, a lot must be better. Oils are crazy pricey. I like them. The Oil crowd uses way less so less mess follows. I've seen mud after graphite from the track gets mixed with the oil on the axles.

I did use a silicone spray on the axles for a while. Sprayed it on the axles and into the wheels, let dry and run. Seemed to work ok.

If 3 wheels touching are ok, how about only 2 touching? As I said somewhere on here, 30 years ago a "Tiger Cub" brought a car that ran on 2 wheels. Yea, right HE built it that way. I'm a machinist and it was no easy task to duplicate. That's when our district went 3 of four touching.

I don't think it's possible for an 8 year old to get 4 on the ground using the slots. I believe the 4 on the ground rule is trying to get rid of the guide pin and 3 wheels.

I don't make the rules. I have asked for ways to enforce or for clarification.

 

[B_Regal Racing]

This is a discussion that you would normally see on DerbyTalk. That being said:

I was once asked to inspect cars (I will not every do it again) and found more lightened wheels that I could count. While I can not turn wheels, I can spot lightened wheels from across the parking lot; but I can not tell the ability of the scout. In the past, I have helped scouts build cars. Some can be trusted with better tools and can do what a lot of pros do with supervision. There is even a recently-turned 12 year old racing in the NPWDRL in the AM class (and he is mid pack). There are others who I would not trust with silverware at the dining room table. How can I be sure that the scout did not turn a set of wheels with parental help? I'm betting there are a few that could with a machinist for a parent or friend. Lightened wheels and those type of rules are just not enforceable and there is no such thing as "the spirit of the rules."

3 touching or 4 touching. Another rule which all preys on the ability of the scout. With 3 touching, it opens the door for finely tuned cars (rail riders) very much like a pro build. How much is truly scout? What you do know is that some "parents" exploit the 3 wheel touching rule. So districts combat that with 4 touching. That's an awful time for everyone, especially the for seasoned builders. The scout mom is just going to push all 4 wheels to the ground to make sure they all touch; something that would make a seasoned builder just cringe. Just as it does in the pros, it is the ability of the scout, regardless the number of wheels touching; but....

Some one on one of these Boards had once said there is more cheating in PWD than there is in NASCAR, and I firmly believe that; however, there are honest racers too. It can be hard to differentiate between the two. At the end of the day, it comes down to the PWD experience and what you as a parent or guardian want to get out of it. It has very little to do with the scout since they will have little say as to what goes on (a parent or guardian can be very influential to a child). And that goes to character. That can not be enforced. The rules have very little to do with it and only gives us substance to talk about. Well written rules eliminate the comment/complaints an inspector/scoutmaster has to deal with.

Maybe I'm jaded.

B_Regal drops the mic and walks off stage...

 

[MrRoadWarrior]

Those Northern Star rules are fabulous. Not only do they cover everything they give tips to the newcomers.

The thing that bothers me about inspection in our races is the inspector never knows what they're doing. At our pack level, the only thing that is checked is the car's weight. At the district level, the wheelbase and the weight are strictly enforced, but I know for a fact the "No changing of the wheel is permitted except the filing off of the mold projection on
the wheel" is not just outdated but not followed.

In my mind, my job is to research the best way to build a car and instruct my scout on building the car. I don't mind the graphite rule because of this, the scout isn't going to mess anything up by over applying. All the other rules I see rustle my jimmies because it's not any harder to tell a scout to do it the faster way. In fact, 3 wheels rail riding is easier to teach than 4 on the floor. (And cheaper when performing both at their max potential).

 

[Bw56]

I see adults posting on here looking for that last bit of speed. How hard they worked to get it tuned just right. Talking as if it was their own personal car. I love the knowledge found and shared here. I just think the boys should build the cars using average household tools. Not many have a lathe or mill at their disposal. Teach them basic physics of drag, kinetic energy, friction, even aerodynamics. And why things work the way they do. That's what everyone on here is doing on here anyway. Looking for knowledge.

The tire "light sanding" rule was needed as the tires in the past were very bad out of the box. The mold mark (spru?) was a huge bump, tires were out of round, etc. Now days, not so much. About the only improvement I see in running them up on a lathe is a reduction in weight for faster starts that equal a higher top speed at the bottom of the ramp. Thats a good thing but not done in the average home. We seem to think buying speed wheels is the best way to get the advantage our boy needs to win because the other boy has to be doing it.

My two boys can't remember how many times they won (they did win some) or what places they finished (they also finished in the middle of the pack), but have no problem talking about what they did to their car and why.

I don't expect the world of PWD to change for little ole me, but as it stands now the biggest winners are the guys building and selling us all this speed.

I'm going to TRY and just watch till race day. That day I'll try my best to keep everyone on a level playing field with these rules or what ever they come up with.
http://www.richardcmoeur.com/scout/2017/pwdtpk/thunpksrules2017.pdf

 

[Richard C. Moeur]

We

Okay, I don't get this.
What'd you get rid of the rule for in the first place, if you didn't want a car to show up with 3 wheels? And it has to have something to keep it on the track if there's no wheel there.

Seems there's an inference of intent that may not be entirely correct.

Personally, I think the 3-wheel car was a creative one, and did indeed meet that year's rules.

We didn't want anything, other than to continue requiring cars to have a minimum of 3 wheels touching. The removal of other number-of-wheel rules that year was to clarify that cars with more than 4 wheels are allowed. After publication, that Cub Scout and his dad observed that the combination of rules would allow a 3-wheel car. Since the car fully complied with the rules that year, it raced and won without argument. Afterward, we thought about keeping the rules the same, but then decided to go back to "a minimum of four" wheels - which, as some have already noted, would allow unbalanced wheel combinations (and as also noted, if the car meets the letter of the rules). I don't know if there's going to be any action to add wording for next year to encourage / require cars to have the four wheels in the "expected" locations, as it could have the negative effect of stifling innovation in terms of car configuration or worse disqualify a car that otherwise should be able to race. Have to do some more research.

In any case, each Cub Scout is expected to build a new car each program year, so minor rules changes of this type, as long as they're publicized and disseminated, shouldn't be a big impact. But as experience has shown, changes need to be fully thought through for impact and interpretation.

 

[Richard C. Moeur]

More rules background: that first year (when I was just a dad in a Class A shirt and not in charge of anything), I noticed that most of the "lively dialogues" between irate parents focused on three issues:

1. a rule that required the use of the "entire" BSA box kit
2. a rule that could be interpreted (unintentionally) as not allowing anything that wasn't in the BSA kit box
   
3. the rule saying wheels would be removed and weighed after competition for compliance.

Regarding the first rule: one parent demanded that all wedge, spoon, flat, or other cars must be disqualified because the car didn't use the "entire" wood block, because half or more of the wood was missing. Sheesh.
The second rule had families pointing at other cars and yelling that "that came from a craft store, not a BSA kit" - even though the car had BSA wheels and axles and was otherwise essentially identical. There were also calls for a car with a Lego driver to be DQed, because BSA kits from the Scout Shop don't have Lego pieces in them. Groan.
The third rule was notable in its omission - no wheels were ever observed to be yanked, meaning machined wheels (violating the stated weight limits) had free rein without expectation of penalty. Plus, I could see that trying to determine compliance after all the races were over could lead to discord or outright unrest.
Those rules provisions were dumped almost as soon as I became co-chair. That in itself greatly lowered the "cranky parent" quotient, with thorough and consistent inspection taking care of the rest.

In 2015, I worked with a group of District-level Derby chairs to go through the rules and see where they could be unified and improved with the intent of re-establishing uniform Council rules. I received a good amount of useful feedback, especially from Camelback and Salt River Districts, and the point-by-point analysis is still posted for review. The result is a modular rules set with a section defining clear and measurable car specifications, another section covering event rules and procedures, and a third optional section defining Open Class racing and any associated rule modifications for those entries. Although the goal of uniform Council rules wasn't quite achieved, the rules sets did improve greatly. Note that the Council would like to see this working group reconvened - if anyone here is a member or resident of Grand Canyon Council and wants to participate as an associate member, let me know.

 

[Richard C. Moeur]

... why regulate the lubrication at all? As long as the lubrication doesn't leak and get on the track and impact other cars (as oil sometimes does and graphite *always* does) ... who cares?

My son and I have used graphite and Krytox, and if properly applied they both work fine. Note that our fastest cars use graphite, with the Krytox cars right up there with them. Plus, a properly-oiled car will be impossible to spot at inspection. That's why we dialed the rules on lube back to simply state for liquid lube "no residue shall leave the car", to address the occasional Cub who uses something other than Krytox, and way too much of it. I don't know if there's much we can do for the cars that leave a pile of black dust every time at the start gate, other than friendly suggestion - the overwhelming majority of families out there aren't even aware of liquid lube or how to properly apply it, and a quick wipe-up of the track between heats typically resolves an over-graphited situation.