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Vitamin K
Guest
BSB racing said:
Are you perhaps willing to share an overview (maybe in broad strokes, if you're trying to protect trade secrets) of your process?
Are you perhaps willing to share an overview (maybe in broad strokes, if you're trying to protect trade secrets) of your process?
G
Guest
Guest
Vitamin K said:
My advice to you if you have NO experience would be to take a night school course at a local VoTech school so you get yourself familiar with how a lathe operates, teminology, etc. You will be way ahead of the game if you have a good instructor. I have only come across 2 people that truly understood the proper way to turn a wheel from my online instructions...........BTW that is the proper term...........TURN, not LATHE A WHEEL.
ngyoung said:
Being a total newbie when it comes to turning wheels on a lathe and after watching the video associated to the quote, I'd like to ask a question. But first, I'll preface the questions by saying: I'm not trying to discredit or dispute the numbers shown, just trying to understand. Would this type of check, the wheel still chucked up in the lathe, be true on most lathes? Shouldn't it be checked on a device, similar to what Owens was selling, to determine concentricity? I'm asking because I don't know. If I'm wrong, please explain where the fault in my thought process fell off, I'm still learning this craft.
GX
The wheel will only be true to the mandrel. So as long as the mandrel is true then the wheel will be also. It can be a struggle to get it true, if you take the mandrel out you'll have to reset it every time. For me I like my run out under .001 that seems to give me the best results.
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Vitamin K
Guest
BSB racing said:
So, not to be contentious, but that's a pretty unsatisfying answer. I'm not a lathe-owner, so I won't be cutting/turning/whatever any wheels any time soon. But, there's two things that I'm having trouble understanding.
Firstly, if you can look at a video and be able to say "That's the wrong way", then you should be able to take a few paragraphs and explain what's wrong about it. You don't need to write a step-by-step for a lathe-less, untrained know-nothing like myself to be able to run out and replicate your process, but you should be able to explain "This is why what so-and-so is doing in the video won't work." Just like if a mechanic looked at a video of how to service an alternator and saw some obvious problems. He might not be able to tell me in 5 minutes how to change an alternator, but he could tell me why what's going on in the flawed video was a Bad Idea(tm).
Secondly, shouldn't the product be more important than the process? If somebody claims to be truing wheels to 0.00015, would it not be more productive to verify the actual wheels than decry the process altogether? If you give me a 0.00015 runout wheel, I don't care if you turned it on a lathe made with a pencil driven by a hamster wheel, I'll take it!
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Guest
Guest
Vitamin K said:
I didn't tell you to go buy a lathe. All I said was if you want a better understanding of what makes a wheel a good wheel, then start at the beginning where you should start and take a course and use THEIR equipment to make some wheels and learn what makes a wheel tick. Trust me, if you understand what is important in making a "ProWheel" then many other things will become clearer to you in your builds. Do you really understand the number you posted? .00015??
I don't think there is anybody out there making a claim like that!
I guess now you have 2 unsatisfying answers?
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Vitamin K
Guest
BSB racing said:
My understanding of runout is that it is the distance (in inches) from which a surface (such as a wheel) deviates from being completely round (that is, the height of a ridge or a valley in the surface). So if I measured a wheel with a dial indicator and indicator moved a total distance of four thousandths of an inch, I' would say that the runout of the wheel was .004".
If that's a flawed understanding, by all means, please correct me.
The number ".00015" seems pretty amazing to me, but it isn't my number. It's what I plucked out from the thread. But if it's unbelievable, it would be more useful for me to read "I have a hard time believing that anybody could produce a wheel with so little runout" rather than (paraphrased) "he's doing it wrong."
Would it really be terribly counterproductive for somebody who is a professional to give a broad overview of their process, so it could be contrasted with the other "Hobbyist" approaches we've seen? Sure, we might not understand all of it, but we could at least see the differences.
I would like to thank Quicktimederby for posting his runout preference of .001". I think that helps define what a "Pro Level" wheel may be based on his past racing history.
Vitamin K your concept of runout is spot on. Total runout is specific term where runout is checked along the entire cylindrical surface.
I see where the .00015" was plucked from, but I would not put much stake in that number(I think there was a typo with an extra zero). The equipment to accurately provide that number is very expensive.
I think .0015" is a very believable number with that process.
As with life there are many different ways to skin the cat.
If you turn your own mandrel, theoretically the runout should be zero on your mandrel. The downside is that the wheel bore may not fit the mandrel size you turned.
If you use gage pins with a tight fit on the bore, you are subject to chucking errors of your machine and chucks.
Vitamin K your concept of runout is spot on. Total runout is specific term where runout is checked along the entire cylindrical surface.
I see where the .00015" was plucked from, but I would not put much stake in that number(I think there was a typo with an extra zero). The equipment to accurately provide that number is very expensive.
I think .0015" is a very believable number with that process.
As with life there are many different ways to skin the cat.
If you turn your own mandrel, theoretically the runout should be zero on your mandrel. The downside is that the wheel bore may not fit the mandrel size you turned.
If you use gage pins with a tight fit on the bore, you are subject to chucking errors of your machine and chucks.
Quicktimederby said:
I use the same mandrel and I try to get it to about .0005
I agree with QT, cutting a new one every time would take more time for me. The guys like BSB and GoatBoy could probably be able to do that easily, but not me. My lathe has a collet chuck and a cheap one at that. So it takes a bit of time for me to get it setup with minimal runout. Your more expensive chucks would have some adjustment you could make. Now a 4 jaw chuck would allow you to indicate the mandrel much quicker once you get the hang of it.
I am guessing they think it shouldn't be public. Not sure why, the fact that if I went into a shop/class etc and tried to figure this out with anyone knowledgeable in this kind of work they would give me a better understanding then what those here are doing is pretty dumb.
I really think a few people should come down from there perches and actually help in this instance, maybe not the secrets that they have learned but what they claim you could learn in a basic class.
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Vitamin K
Guest
Well, I mean, the pessimistic conjecture is that it benefits people who make money off of selling lathe-turned wheels to keep the pool of understanding smaller. The more people who can turn wheels, the more the market gets flooded. BUT, there might be other reasons that I am not understanding.
From my personal bias, I would love for techniques to be pioneered to level the playing field, as far as lightened wheels go. There really aren't a lot of good options out there for folks like me who love the derby but lack time and money (and spousal patience) to acquire the high-end lathe-turned wheels. That pretty much rules out being competitive at events like the Mid-America, where you can run 1 gram wheels, provide the fluting and lettering is still there.
QT's mention that a runout of .001 works for him is actually very helpful, because, honestly, if it is good enough for him, it's durn well good enough for me. I've actually tested out-of-the-tube wheels at just above .001" of runout, so if I could improve wheels on my own to this point, using inexpensive equipment, I'd be pretty pleased.
From my personal bias, I would love for techniques to be pioneered to level the playing field, as far as lightened wheels go. There really aren't a lot of good options out there for folks like me who love the derby but lack time and money (and spousal patience) to acquire the high-end lathe-turned wheels. That pretty much rules out being competitive at events like the Mid-America, where you can run 1 gram wheels, provide the fluting and lettering is still there.
QT's mention that a runout of .001 works for him is actually very helpful, because, honestly, if it is good enough for him, it's durn well good enough for me. I've actually tested out-of-the-tube wheels at just above .001" of runout, so if I could improve wheels on my own to this point, using inexpensive equipment, I'd be pretty pleased.
BuckeyeRacing said:
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Guest
Guest
BuckeyeRacing said:
Here is what makes a pro wheel. A wheel that is machined to the specs for any particular class. Such as 2.0 grams, a maximum diameter, a minimum weight, a minimum tread width and most importantly the O.D. being concentric with the I.D. If you adhere to the rules, get your dimensions true, perpendicular you should have yourself a Pro Wheel. It isn't magic, but it is very difficult to do for someone starting out with no experience under their belt. You would be better off making little meaningless projects and get the hang of how a lathe works and what you need as far as tooling to get the job accomplished. That is ALL I have been trying to tell you in my posts, nothing more.
I have been a tool and die maker/machinist for 47 years. I had an 8,000 apprenticeship and truth be told when the 8,000 hours was done, the 4 years of nightschool was out of the way, I was a Journeyman Tool and Die maker. (at least that is what the State Certificate said) However, after 8,000 hours I was just starting out. I had the basics. It has been 47 years of learning. I am the sole machinist that supports over 400 people where I work. Some days it is overwhelming, some days it is very satisfying.......Now having said all that, I haven't stopped learning. I pretty much discover something new everyday. There aren't 2 days the same and that is nice. So for me to sit here and tell you step by step how to make a wheel when you have no experience would be pretty darn frustrating for both of us. Agreed??
Here's the thing. This is not rocket science. The goal is to cut a plastic wheel on a lathe. You are not cutting threads. You are not cutting a taper... you don't even have anything resembling a tight tolerance. There is not much to figuring it out. A set of wheels costs a couple bucks. You're gonna screw some up. You need to be fine with that fact and accept it. Everything time you screw it up, learn from it.
I don't think you need to be spoon fed the techniques used by people who have been doing this for years as their profession. I understand wanting to be able to produce pro level wheels right away for yourself, but if you have no experience at all with a lathe, no one is going to want to spend any time trying to explain anything that would require at least a basic understanding. It would be like me speaking to a person that only speaks Mandarin. They can nod their head all day long, but the reality is, the only thing I am thinking is "I'm wasting my time"
If you had a very specific question and you understand exactly what it is that you are asking, these guys will bend over backwards to help you out. But just a broad "Tell me how to do it" will not go over well.
I encourage anyone to give it a try, but there are start up costs you will incur and I can understand that being hard to justify. If it is, then just buy the wheels from John. But if you do want to go out and buy a lathe, that's great! The first tip I can give you is not to use carbide tooling, use high speed steel. It cuts the plastic better. But with the use of that type of tooling comes the fact that you will need to know how to grind the cutting tip. You will learn this in a class as Bill suggests...in fact it will probably be one of the first things you learn before they let you near one of the lathes.
I don't think you need to be spoon fed the techniques used by people who have been doing this for years as their profession. I understand wanting to be able to produce pro level wheels right away for yourself, but if you have no experience at all with a lathe, no one is going to want to spend any time trying to explain anything that would require at least a basic understanding. It would be like me speaking to a person that only speaks Mandarin. They can nod their head all day long, but the reality is, the only thing I am thinking is "I'm wasting my time"
If you had a very specific question and you understand exactly what it is that you are asking, these guys will bend over backwards to help you out. But just a broad "Tell me how to do it" will not go over well.
I encourage anyone to give it a try, but there are start up costs you will incur and I can understand that being hard to justify. If it is, then just buy the wheels from John. But if you do want to go out and buy a lathe, that's great! The first tip I can give you is not to use carbide tooling, use high speed steel. It cuts the plastic better. But with the use of that type of tooling comes the fact that you will need to know how to grind the cutting tip. You will learn this in a class as Bill suggests...in fact it will probably be one of the first things you learn before they let you near one of the lathes.
Your both right, but the fustration for everyone not doing it is there are 2 videos and all everyone says is that's not the right way. I can look at 100 videos showing all kinds of lathing and your right it is not rocket science lathing a wheel, but if all we can find is the wrong ways, well then where do you start?
No one was asking to be spoon feed. but those who truely want to see what the process takes also wants to know how it is done correctly. Everything done right takes 100 if not 1000's of tries and repetitions, that is what learning is, however, if we start with only wrong or bad ways, then there is no learning, just fustration and mistakes.
No one was asking to be spoon feed. but those who truely want to see what the process takes also wants to know how it is done correctly. Everything done right takes 100 if not 1000's of tries and repetitions, that is what learning is, however, if we start with only wrong or bad ways, then there is no learning, just fustration and mistakes.
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Guest
Guest
BuckeyeRacing said:
Now see here is the perfect example...............I told you in an earlier post the term was turning a wheel or you can even say machining a wheel............but after all I said, you still insist on saying lathing a wheel. I guess I am done...........like I said frustrating. Maybe it is Rocket Science?
And no I don't agree that it would indeed be fustrating. In fact here's a great example. I am not a mechanic, never deal with issues unless there easy (oil change, brakes etc.) But I had a transmition issue on one of our cars that I self diagnosed after researching the problem a prior issue caused. After a couple of well done you tube videos by actual mechanics who knew the issue and how to fix it, well I tore a transmition done and fixed it myself. It was not fustrating, it was enjoyable, not super hard but not what most would say is easy.
This is to show one thing: Sometimes people want to actually learn, not be spoon feed, but learn and then try and make mistakes and learn more.
This is to show one thing: Sometimes people want to actually learn, not be spoon feed, but learn and then try and make mistakes and learn more.
You start with a class, or with someone willing to spend their time with you.
A point to take here is that the question was asked here on the forum. If an answer was expected, then the logical thought would be that you would trust the answer you are given. If, then, you are told that is the wrong way, trust it.
Something to think about is, whenever someone gets a new lathe, the first thing they want to do is turn a brass cannon. Don't be a brass cannon guy. Be a plastic wheel guy. So many questions will be answered just by giving it a try. Cut a wheel. If it sucks, tr again. If it still sucks, buy a set thats already done and study them.
A point to take here is that the question was asked here on the forum. If an answer was expected, then the logical thought would be that you would trust the answer you are given. If, then, you are told that is the wrong way, trust it.
Something to think about is, whenever someone gets a new lathe, the first thing they want to do is turn a brass cannon. Don't be a brass cannon guy. Be a plastic wheel guy. So many questions will be answered just by giving it a try. Cut a wheel. If it sucks, tr again. If it still sucks, buy a set thats already done and study them.
Buckeye,
Don't take any of it personal. I would say you're not going to get anymore info than what you got.
Here is an older post, notice it was not lit up with responses.
http://www.pinewoodderbyonline.com/post/Cutting-wheels-on-a-Lathe-6221244
There is alot of good info in this post and the link above, it's not just all laid out for newbie.
For example;
5Kids, says that you want to locate off the ID (aka primary datum in proper terminology)
Quicktime, says you want your mandrel not to runout very much.
Any runout in your workholding will directly result in runout in your end product.
There are some RPM values thrown around which come from the proper SFPM (surface feet per minute based on the material you are machining)
That leaves you with depth of cut and your feed rate, both of which are breifly discussed in the linked post.
Also tool or cutter design is briefly discussed, all of these things have to work together to get a palatable outcome.
Don't take any of it personal. I would say you're not going to get anymore info than what you got.
Here is an older post, notice it was not lit up with responses.
http://www.pinewoodderbyonline.com/post/Cutting-wheels-on-a-Lathe-6221244
There is alot of good info in this post and the link above, it's not just all laid out for newbie.
For example;
5Kids, says that you want to locate off the ID (aka primary datum in proper terminology)
Quicktime, says you want your mandrel not to runout very much.
Any runout in your workholding will directly result in runout in your end product.
There are some RPM values thrown around which come from the proper SFPM (surface feet per minute based on the material you are machining)
That leaves you with depth of cut and your feed rate, both of which are breifly discussed in the linked post.
Also tool or cutter design is briefly discussed, all of these things have to work together to get a palatable outcome.
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