Lathe usage

[Firstshot]

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[cygnus]

I have no experience with this, but here are some pics by Shade Racing.

It looks like he made a custom brass piece to fit the wheel bore. And it looks like there's an aluminum collar that fits over the inner hub to work in conjunction with the brass wheel bore piece. This would be for lathing the tread and inner edge.

For removing the outside hub double step and re-coning the inner hub it looks like Shade is using an end mill bit.

I've read that HSS bits are the best and to not use carbide bits.

Hope this helps some. Maybe those with experience can chime in here.

 

[cozybldr]

Carbide chatters really easily with the BSA wheels in my experience. HSS (High Speed Steel) cutters that are hand ground and have a generous radius work well.

 

[5KidsRacing]

Here is eHow's method.... I wouldn't reccommend it though/images/boards/smilies/smile.gif

http://www.ehow.com/how_5802011_lathe-pinewood-derby-wheels.html

 

[cygnus]

Investing in some pin gauges might be useful for lathing wheels. See post #8 in the below thread where Owens Racing discusses purchasing pin gauges.

http://forums.derbydad4hire.com/post/Wheel-Indicator-Fixture-5804576

 

[DerbyDad4Hire]

You know what I will say! I have been machining wheels for 4 years now and even today I found a way to make them better. It is very frustrating. Unfortunately this is one thing I do not share. You are going to ruin a lot of wheels. I had 0 machining experience when i started but I have a very hard head and a very strong inner motor that won't quit until I get it right. The main thing is have fun testing and learning. These guys have got you in the right direction.

 

[OPARENNEN]

Years ago I bought a good wheel holder from MaxVelocity.
Later I saw the same at several web locations, including
PineCar (at Hobby Lobby.
Tbey worked good for BSA racing, but not for league
racing. Even though I am not bad, I simply cannot match DD4H.
And if I could, considering the time, it would not be worth trying.
There are too many other aspects in building a winning car that
are more worth the time and effort

 

[Owens Racing]

I can understand the fascination with learning something new and doing it yourself. It is not the way I would go about it, but considering your experience and equipment, the pictures posted above would be a great starting point. Before you ask how I would do it, understand that I run a machine shop with millions invested in equipment. I'm not keeping any secrets, just have access to a higher level of equipment...and over 20 years in the trade.

That being said...as long as I can get the level of quality I get from John, I will never cut another BSA wheel. As I get older, my time seems to be worth more and more to me. So if I can find something available that meets my standards, I will invest my time elsewhere...making the things I CANT find in the market.

 

[Guest]

I can understand the fascination with learning something new and doing it yourself. It is not the way I would go about it, but considering your experience and equipment, the pictures posted above would be a great starting point. Before you ask how I would do it, understand that I run a machine shop with millions invested in equipment. I'm not keeping any secrets, just have access to a higher level of equipment...and over 20 years in the trade.

That being said...as long as I can get the level of quality I get from John, I will never cut another BSA wheel. As I get older, my time seems to be worth more and more to me. So if I can find something available that meets my standards, I will invest my time elsewhere...making the things I CANT find in the market.

Now there is a sensible post! Not that others weren't, but Owens Racing is telling it like it is! DIFFICULT @ BEST! Expensive as well till you get everything you really need. I've been a machinist and have collected knowledge as well as tools for the past 44 years, so the only outlay of money for me was the lathe. I also figure it will give me some added income when I retire and have more time, if I decide to sell my wheels. I think there are way too many guys out there that think, well I bought a lathe now I'm going to cut wheels. Doesn't quite work like that. Seems every time you turn around there is something else you need or forgot to buy. If you decide to turn your own after reading all the negative posts (not negative, realistic)............ I wish you the BEST OF LUCK!

 

[5KidsRacing]

Firstshot,

I had zero skills working with BSA wheels when I started and I am no machinist. There are very few people that can make good wheels and it takes alot of trial and error and patience. I started making wheels for the same reasons as you, I wanted to be able to do it all myself, win or lose. I agree with John when he says make sure you have fun, that is most important thing.

Don't be discouraged, put your head down, go with your gut instinct and cut some wheels.

Scott

 

[zeebzob]

Firstshot,

I too understand the desire to build it yourself. I think that as long as you understand its going to be a learning process and you don't expect to turn out wheels that look like they came out of a CNC machine, then have at it and have fun. I also have a mini lathe and am always looking for better ways to this process. I have a mandrel much like the one pictures from Shade, but I made it much shorter so that when the wheel is mounted with the outside hub out, the spindle is not exposed. That way I can true the outside hub. I dont think I would get very good results in the 3 jaw..

Few things to note.

1) When you cut your spindle to final size, make it slightly over size and then polish it to the final size for a press fit. make it VERY smooth so you don't chew up the bores.

2) When/if you remove and then remount the spindle, you need to indicate it back in. I am not happy until I get it to .0005" runout.

3) Take all my advise with a grain of salt. While I do enjoy making wheels, I do not enjoy my consistent last place finishes. If you are looking to be fast right away, buy the stuff from John.

 

[Guest]

Well here goes my first post. I have been lurkng for some time now and I am very impressed with this group. So you don't consider me completely inept - we have two boys each of which has won their age group at state in the Royal Ambassadors pinewood derby races. My wife & I have also won the open class the last two years. This is a race that uses short wheel base and thin wheels. This success is directly attributable to the comments from the folks on this board and DD4H products and support.

Reason for post- We have been blessed to acquire a mini lathe. As many of the machinist boards note - experience is better than equipment. I readily admit that I don't even qualify as a novice in machine work. I have scoured this board and I think most all of the pinewood boards for info on how to machine plastic wheels. I have only begun to read many of the machinist boards.

If my question is out of bounds and this is one of those things you have to learn for yourself then please forgive the post. If it is fair game please comment on the following:

1. How do you hold the plastic wheel on the lathe without damaging the bore? I have not located a small enough expanding Collett available for purchase.
2. Is there a better way - a cone mandrel, a simple press fit,etc?
3. If this tool must be made - how does one go about making it?
4.. I would like to be able to work on real derby wheels and perhaps try proxy racing next year - What tips should I understand about lathing these types of wheels (stock class)?

Recognizing DD4H is clearly the best source for wheels - i still have a facination with making them myself. Thanks in advance for any information and for indulging a new guy's questions.

Firstshot......I admire someone who tries to do things himself. I am that way as is Scott (5kids) I didn't mean to burst your bubble. Turning wheels is not an easy thing to do. (At least good ones aren't easy) I have told several people the best thing they can do is to take a local night school course at a tech school. You will be miles ahead than trying to learn all this stuff on your own. I served an 8,000 hour Tool and Die Maker Apprenticeship and when I was done, I had a decent grip on lathes, mills, grinders, etc. but that was just the start. It takes a long time to get really good at machining. If you have determination that is great, it will get you far. Good luck with your new lathe, but learn to walk before you try to run.

 

[Shade Racing]

I was surprised to see some of my old pic's up that's what I was using but it's been a while sense I've played around with my lathe

 

[Guest]

Thanks for the encouraging words

. I don't take any of them as negative. In my line of work I too have to warn casual folks away for their own benefit. I took that as a sign you gentlemen are truly professionals in the field. I also recognize this board works hard at unity and i don't want to violate that culture by asking questions that are too probing. I do however wish to mine the experience of the many experts here that find these questions appropriate.

To illustrate my stubbornness

- I would like to ask a slightly different question. Hopefully it can be answered without having to reveal anything super secret, while at the same time providing valuable guidance and directionality to a new guy.

If we were to accept the notion of a perfect wheel holder- for argument's sake lets say it would be able to do all of the following without ever having to be removed from the holder:
1. Hold the wheel accurately without damaging bore
2. Allow the external tread to be lathed accurately to the bore
3. Allow the inside face of the tread, where the wheel would contact the center rail on dfw, to be trued up
4. Allow for any removal of interior plastic inside the tread and wheel face
5. Allow the inside cone to be trued and reconed if necessary
6. Allow for the external double step removal and truing up
7. Whatever else not included above

Again for arguments sake lets say that the operator lacks the proper equipment or experience or both to attain ALL of the above without removing the wheel from the holder...

What is the most critical element to keep?
What is the least critical element?
Is the order listed above how you would go about "giving up" portions of your perfect wheel holder (starting with 6 and moving to 1)?
If not, what order would you prescribe?

This discussion has already helped me tremendously, thanks again for any further comment.

I have such a fixture that 1 to 7 can be accomplished! The more you can do on one setting the better.