A quick and dirty method for weighting we have used with good success at the scout level is to drill a 1" hole in the top of a 5/8" body at the axle line all the way through then clamp to a drill press table and pour the lead in to fill. It adds most needed weight. You need to clip the axles short to do this. If its too much drill some out, not enough, drill 1/4" holes in the back corners and just in front of the 1" hole and add more lead. Just another option.
New to the forum, first post and a few questions **Race Recap Pg. 7**
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Vitamin K
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All I'll say is that whenever I mention the method I employ for aligning bent axles in the "straight axle only" crowd, I very rarely get any interaction with the methodology, and usually just get the mantra-like response of "Never bend your axles!"
I mean, I'm not arguing the success of straight axles, but unless you wanna pay overnight shipping for a Silver Bullet, you're gonna have several throwaway blocks before you get anything resembling a good drill job on the rears. And hopefully you've got a well calibrated drill press, too.
Assuming that you're going to build a tuning board to make a rail rider anyhow, it's not much more of a stretch to build the wire weight assemblies that you use to isolate the rear wheels and quickly align them.
If there's any real objection to bent axle rears, other than "it's hard to align", I'm all ears, but I have found them easy to align with the proper techniques, so I'm waiting for other reasons not to bend.
I mean, I'm not arguing the success of straight axles, but unless you wanna pay overnight shipping for a Silver Bullet, you're gonna have several throwaway blocks before you get anything resembling a good drill job on the rears. And hopefully you've got a well calibrated drill press, too.
Assuming that you're going to build a tuning board to make a rail rider anyhow, it's not much more of a stretch to build the wire weight assemblies that you use to isolate the rear wheels and quickly align them.
If there's any real objection to bent axle rears, other than "it's hard to align", I'm all ears, but I have found them easy to align with the proper techniques, so I'm waiting for other reasons not to bend.
- Nov 24, 2011
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Isn't the difficulty of tuning enough for a new person? If you don't have a lot of experience building and tuning it's much harder. Addition difficulties include toe in, toe out, dog tracking, different bend angles stacked on top of different insertion angles and height placement. If that's not enough for an experienced guy it's definitely huge for a newer guy. We spend a lot of time and effort to eliminate all of those things in the pro ranks and they are definitely no less important for a scout.
So what you are telling me is to bend the rear axles. Hope they are both approximately the same angle. Hope they are both angled and not curved. Hope that i put the axles in correctly in the slots. Hope that if i glue them with CA they wont move when it hits the stop.
Drill press with a good flat surface to drill four on the floor.
Wheel and axle prep will win majority of scout races. Don't forget a good COM.
Drill press with a good flat surface to drill four on the floor.
Wheel and axle prep will win majority of scout races. Don't forget a good COM.
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Vitamin K
Guest
Kinser Racing said:
Toe-in and toe-out are addressed by the bias-weight tuning method. Insertion angle is "straight", which is easy if you're using holes...maybe a little trickier if you're using slots, but if you're using slots for straight axle camber, you're into a whole new world of mess anyhow. Same with height placement.
Bend angle is possibly tricky, but there's a guide on the page I linked to check your angles.
All in all, my opinion is that drilling cant requires much more practice to "do it right", and then , you only get one shot per block (well, maybe two if you flip it around). Also, with drilled cant, you have to have it perfect before you do anything else. With adjustable axles, you can fix problems if they show up after everything else is said and done -- this in itself is more newbie friendly, in my opinion.
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Vitamin K
Guest
derbychip said:
About 10-15 minutes to build the weight assemblies and then 5-10 minutes per car to actually align.
Somebody spends too much time on derbytalk. Don't bend your rears, spend that time in other places.
Vitamin k if you think you only get one chance maybe two at drilling the cant, you give up way to early.
You only need a perfect drill job for league racing.
Somewhere in the forum you said you can't wait for the next innovation in PWD, yet you still want to take it back at least 5 years.
You only need a perfect drill job for league racing.
Somewhere in the forum you said you can't wait for the next innovation in PWD, yet you still want to take it back at least 5 years.
Ok. Bottom line is the badges don't lie. If there was a race with Vitamin K and anyone else who bends axles vs kinser and straight axles and no cant, my money is on kinser. Plus this is a scout race. You don't have to cant the rears to win if you nail down everything else. Why confuse the guy with having him try and tune bent axles. It's his choice, but I wouldn't bend.
Anyone here racing Kinser is not going to have a good chance of winning, so that does not prove straight axles are better than bent axles. And badges do not tell the whole story either, as I could have had more badges that what I do, but until I'm competetively racing with the pros, I choose not to have any. While I was happy when I first broke 3 seconds, a sub 2.97 badge still does not necessarily mean I'm "fast."
I have read DT in the past when I first got interested in this hobby, along with reading here. Since the silver bullet also requires a drill press, I did start bending the rear axles to get a negative cant. While I was able to align the car (what appeared to be a good alignment at that time), it was tedious, even using the method Stan suggests. As I got more and more interested in this hobby, I decided to send cars into MA last year. In looking at my times, I was definitely slow.
I did go out and invest in a drill press and the silver bullet and have become much faster. I have also be able to build cars that are more consistent in the expected speed. As I keep building, I am finding even to most miniscule error in the rear drill, no matter how small, can effect the top end speed. Racing here, I'm trying to get that last 100th to be competive with the pros. The variability of a bent rear axle will certainly hinder that IMHO. I personally have tried both ways and have found straight axles appear to be faster, not because people here have said so, but because I have actual experience trying both methods.
Just with everything else posted here, each person has to determine what gives him/her the best results. Each person's build style will be different. I would try straight axles vs bent axles make your own determination.
I have read DT in the past when I first got interested in this hobby, along with reading here. Since the silver bullet also requires a drill press, I did start bending the rear axles to get a negative cant. While I was able to align the car (what appeared to be a good alignment at that time), it was tedious, even using the method Stan suggests. As I got more and more interested in this hobby, I decided to send cars into MA last year. In looking at my times, I was definitely slow.
I did go out and invest in a drill press and the silver bullet and have become much faster. I have also be able to build cars that are more consistent in the expected speed. As I keep building, I am finding even to most miniscule error in the rear drill, no matter how small, can effect the top end speed. Racing here, I'm trying to get that last 100th to be competive with the pros. The variability of a bent rear axle will certainly hinder that IMHO. I personally have tried both ways and have found straight axles appear to be faster, not because people here have said so, but because I have actual experience trying both methods.
Just with everything else posted here, each person has to determine what gives him/her the best results. Each person's build style will be different. I would try straight axles vs bent axles make your own determination.
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Vitamin K
Guest
B_Regal Racing said:
That's the most reasoned and objective response I've read since this debate began. My hat is off to you, sir.
Vitamin K said:
You obviously don't know me. No one calls me "sir"; other things, maybe. /images/boards/smilies/smile.gif
Well it seems I opened a can of worms here. I apologize to those who posted answers I missed. I think that for this race I'm going to concentrate on the wheel and axle prep as well as weighting the car properly and I'll work up to building a proper rail rider next time. I do have access to a drill press but I don't have a block for drilling the canted axle slots nor will I be able to acquire one in time. It's just something I'll have to get more acclimated with after this race is over. Again I really do appreciate all the helpfulness and I will keep updating this thread until the car is finished.
Well put B Regal.
I think that perhaps a lesson could be learned in bending the axles after the races... Roll the car down a tuning board and watch what is happening, turn the axles and roll again watch what the car does. turn them again and watch again. There is valuable data there. Things that will help you learn what going fast really is. But without a baseline, and basic understanding of what is happening and why, you likely would not invest in a drill press and/or a Silver Bullet. You guys all know how addicting this is. But half of the fun is learning something along the way. Stumbling upon it yourself always adds some sense of achievement. Or doing something with a expected outcome in mind and actually having it work out. Seriously, I have learned so much just reading on this site. But some of the most meaningful moments have been where the rubber meets the road, or in our case when the plastic meets the aluminum. Putting the stuff we have learned into practice and watching the car rip down the track and the ear to ear smiles on my kids faces. Thank you guys for putting up with my ramblings and best of luck to all of you.
I think that perhaps a lesson could be learned in bending the axles after the races... Roll the car down a tuning board and watch what is happening, turn the axles and roll again watch what the car does. turn them again and watch again. There is valuable data there. Things that will help you learn what going fast really is. But without a baseline, and basic understanding of what is happening and why, you likely would not invest in a drill press and/or a Silver Bullet. You guys all know how addicting this is. But half of the fun is learning something along the way. Stumbling upon it yourself always adds some sense of achievement. Or doing something with a expected outcome in mind and actually having it work out. Seriously, I have learned so much just reading on this site. But some of the most meaningful moments have been where the rubber meets the road, or in our case when the plastic meets the aluminum. Putting the stuff we have learned into practice and watching the car rip down the track and the ear to ear smiles on my kids faces. Thank you guys for putting up with my ramblings and best of luck to all of you.
Man, Vitamin K is getting crucified here.
I will say this. There are over 1100 members on this board and less than 40 that consistently send in cars to the league race. What does that tell you? It tells me that the vast majority of members join because they are going to be racing once per year for up to four years with their child who is a scout. So, while drilling rear axles holes at an angle with straight axles is currently the preferred method, it does not mean that a father and son with a little bit of patience can't get a bent rear axle car to perform well enough to win a scout race. Remember that....a scout race.
Keep in mind, the once a year racer may not want to spend a whole lot of money on this little venture. (Drill. Press, Silver Bullet, etc.) This is why DerbyWorx is in business. Cheap tools with a short life span.
So, the don't, don't, don't comments in regards to bending rears may not apply to everyone.
Now, all that being said, if a family friend comes to my house for help with their build, I would never go to the bent axle method...but that's because I already have all the tools to do the straight axle method.
Some of you may be ready to blast me on this. That's fine, I'm a big boy. Just remember, not everyone is in the same situation. Sure, winning is fun, but honestly, I have spoken to a lot of scout dads who simply want to just have a decent showing and not embarrass their kid by finishing last.
So to recap, straight axle method - preferred
Bent axle method - proven not as effective, but also not the end of the world.
I will say this. There are over 1100 members on this board and less than 40 that consistently send in cars to the league race. What does that tell you? It tells me that the vast majority of members join because they are going to be racing once per year for up to four years with their child who is a scout. So, while drilling rear axles holes at an angle with straight axles is currently the preferred method, it does not mean that a father and son with a little bit of patience can't get a bent rear axle car to perform well enough to win a scout race. Remember that....a scout race.
Keep in mind, the once a year racer may not want to spend a whole lot of money on this little venture. (Drill. Press, Silver Bullet, etc.) This is why DerbyWorx is in business. Cheap tools with a short life span.
So, the don't, don't, don't comments in regards to bending rears may not apply to everyone.
Now, all that being said, if a family friend comes to my house for help with their build, I would never go to the bent axle method...but that's because I already have all the tools to do the straight axle method.
Some of you may be ready to blast me on this. That's fine, I'm a big boy. Just remember, not everyone is in the same situation. Sure, winning is fun, but honestly, I have spoken to a lot of scout dads who simply want to just have a decent showing and not embarrass their kid by finishing last.
So to recap, straight axle method - preferred
Bent axle method - proven not as effective, but also not the end of the world.
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