New to the forum, first post and a few questions **Race Recap Pg. 7**

[Vitamin K]

So, let me share a shocking revelation here: 95% of you (at least), think I'm completely, utterly wrong.

I am perfectly okay with this.

What I'm not okay with is misrepresenting what I've said, or the context in which I've said it. That poor strawman can only take so much of a beating.

Allow me to offer a few mis-interpretations, with helpful corrections.

- You don't league-race and you don't have any trophies, so you should shut up.

Maybe if I were advising somebody on a league-racing situation, this would make sense, but I'm not.

- I (or somebody else I know) aligned bent axles with a different method than the one you linked, and therefore bent axles suck.

This is tiring, because it doesn't interact with the actual methodology I'm advocating. Only one person (to my knowledge) to respond to this thread has actually gone that far (I think one other may have skimmed the material). If you haven't interacted with the material and you respond as if you have, there's not much productive conversation that we can have, is there?

- I bet if you and I made cars, mine would beat yours.

Well, okay? That's possibly true. But even if so, there are a lot of factors that go into making a league-ready car, beyond just rear alignment. So even if we both aligned straight, there's a lot of other factors, no? Precision axles, turned wheels, oil, Jiggy-sprays, aerodynamics, etc, etc...

- You are clearly wrong, and you teach bad things, so you should stop sharing your opinion.

If you haven't tried the process that I linked with bent rears, you can't authoritatively claim that it produces bad results. Please spare me the scripture quotations from whatever Pinewood Gospel is preached here. I am not contesting the efficiency of straight-axle cant, but I am unswayed by naysayers who haven't tried the alternative.

 

[dpatrick911]

I am probably get flamed for this. But here is my story from our most recent builds. My schedule was really tight with work this year. Wasn't sure how I was going to pull of building 2 cars inside of a week. But I decided to try for my kids. My schedule was completely screwed. Long and short, I could not start working on our cars in earnest until last Wednesday. So we dove in. I took what I had, a couple of sample bodies that I had cut, just working out some ideas with the laser cutter. They were going to have to be good enough. I set up the drill press seemed like I had everything dialed in. Fixtured the cars in the Silver Bullet, double checked my fence setup. Everything seemed to be in order. I drilled all of my holes. Rears canted at 3 degrees, front raised wheel canted to 3 degrees and the DFW flat. When I finished, I wrapped up and left, I do most of our work at a Makers Space I belong to. I wasn't feeling great all day and got home and went to bed. Turned out I had a stomach bug of some sort. But I wasn't able to get back to the cars again until late Thursday night/Friday morning. My kids had sanded, painted, and stained and poly coated their cars with me trying to direct and help them from bed. They actually turned out great. Well by the time I got to looking at them, the Poly was still a little tacky. So I decided to just let them sit and continue to dry. So I started prepping the wheels and axles. Well after a few hours of sleep, Friday afternoon rolls around, and the cars are ready to handle. So I finished up the polish job on the axles sprayed em down with Jig and finished the wheel prep. Friday night was track setup and electronics. I got back to the house around 11p the jig was dry so I oiled up the wheels. installed them in the car and started our tuning. First roll. No rear wheel migration. Second roll nothing. moved the wheels back and forth on the axles and rolled again. I got a little movement. Wasn't what I was hoping for. I rolled them backwards... Nothing, they would not move out to the axles heads no matter what I did. I did not press them in all the way to their final installed position because my eyes aren't what they used to be. I thought well, maybe there is some dust in the axle holes throwing the cant off. So I reached in my toolbox for my drill bit... It wasn't in there. That was when I realized what I had done. I had drilled the holes with a HSS bit and not my carbide bit. It wasn't that there was dust in the holes the drill bit drifted when I drilled my holes. My heart sank. I knew we were likely done. We run against some pretty decent cars, not pro cars, but fast enough that I was fairly confident that I had just installed a set of brakes on our car with this blunder. So where did I go? Here, I looked and looked. And here is what I found.

Yes, I should have checked my drill job first. But did I mention that I was feeling lousy? I just wanted to go home and go to bed. Shame on me, I get that.
So, I read and reread that statement. I talked to my kids about what had happened and we made an executive decision. We bent the axles. Now we are not talking much maybe 1-1.5 degrees. We cleaned the axles re-lubed them and decided that we were willing to live with the consequences. Well Saturday morning is here, we got the axles back in the cars and started our tuning again. Honestly, it went much smoother axles migrated out rolling forward timing seemed good, they migrated at approximately the same time, I rolled them backwards and within a few rolls seemed like we had achieved neutral toe on the rears on both cars. So we installed the racing DFW axle and in just a few minutes had our 4" of steer. So, we showed up to register our cars willing to live and die by what we had done. As it turned out, we smoked everybody, my kids went undefeated and they blew the doors off of everybody else. We are talking multiple car lengths all day long. Was it the bent axles? No. Was it having a good polish job on the axles and wheel bores? Most likely. Could I have done just as well not bending the axles? I don't know. The advice above says only to fix a bad drill job. But also states to double check you drill job before you proceed. Again, shame on me. I was distracted and did not follow this critical step. I could not scrap my kids cars. So I did what I thought was right. Did I get lucky? Maybe. I'd like to think some creative thinking and engineering countermeasures contributed to the wins. But who knows. Honestly, I would have much rather had 3 degree canted holes and straight axles. But in the end, my kids brought home 2 Grand Champion trophies (boys and girls). Like others have said here there are probably other areas to concentrate on before you worry about bending the axles, like polishing the axles and wheel bores, getting your COM right. But in the end, I am glad that I researched here and made the decision to bend the axles and tune the car the way I thought it should be. Is it the right way? Most likely not. Have I learned alot about rail riding by bending axles? Yes, I have. For the group we race with, I generally know what is right and wrong to make our cars go fast enough to win. I really wish that the drill job had gone more smoothly, and I know I learned to triple check your setup including your drill bit before you start. Hopefully my next build will work out better than this one. But if it doesn't and somehow I find myself in a similar situation. I will not hesitate to put a little bend in the axles to achieve what I think it a reasonably good tune.

 

[Obsessedderbydad]

So, let me share a shocking revelation here: 95% of you (at least), think I'm completely, utterly wrong.

I am perfectly okay with this.

What I'm not okay with is misrepresenting what I've said, or the context in which I've said it. That poor strawman can only take so much of a beating.

Allow me to offer a few mis-interpretations, with helpful corrections.

- You don't league-race and you don't have any trophies, so you should shut up.

Maybe if I were advising somebody on a league-racing situation, this would make sense, but I'm not. Never said that. What I said was there's a reason they have a lot of badges. They know what they're talking about so if people want to learn, listen to them.

- I (or somebody else I know) aligned bent axles with a different method than the one you linked, and therefore bent axles suck.

This is tiring, because it doesn't interact with the actual methodology I'm advocating. Only one person (to my knowledge) to respond to this thread has actually gone that far (I think one other may have skimmed the material). If you haven't interacted with the material and you respond as if you have, there's not much productive conversation that we can have, is there? AGAIN, this is getting tiring. What we are saying is this site prides itself on teaching proper technique. Drilled rear cant'd is the fastest you can go. You know how I and everyone else who preaches that knows? We tried the bent axles and it wasn't as fast. If you think these guys are saying "dont bend the axles" because they only know drilled cant'd, you're sadly mistaken. Myself and probably almost everyone on here has tried everything under the sun, including bought into a lot of gimmicks out there (i.e. treadmill tuning, bent rear axles and durby dust, well maybe just me on the derby dust...) We condone teaching someone bent rear axles because we know it isn't fast. SO why teach someone a technique that isn't as fast as you could be? Stick to the basics of wheel and axles prep, weighting and design and you'll have a fast scout car. No time? That's ok, nail those other things and you'll still have a fast scout car WITHOUT cant'd rears.

- I bet if you and I made cars, mine would beat yours.

Well, okay? That's possibly true. But even if so, there are a lot of factors that go into making a league-ready car, beyond just rear alignment. So even if we both aligned straight, there's a lot of other factors, no? Precision axles, turned wheels, oil, Jiggy-sprays, aerodynamics, etc, etc... Correct, but what Chips is saying is you dont send in cars and you're giving advise. So why should someone listen to your advise when you have NOTHING to prove your advise or results.

- You are clearly wrong, and you teach bad things, so you should stop sharing your opinion.

If you haven't tried the process that I linked with bent rears, you can't authoritatively claim that it produces bad results. Please spare me the scripture quotations from whatever Pinewood Gospel is preached here. I am not contesting the efficiency of straight-axle cant, but I am unswayed by naysayers who haven't tried the alternative. Again, probably everyone on here has tried every claim to fame in PWD folk lore. That is why they are the fastest out there... because they've tried everything. I personally tried the bent rear axles. I took a long time to make sure my alignment was good. We did well in the scout races, but I can tell you his cars now a days where he preps the wheels and axles based on Johns instruction and I drill his cant'd axle holes, his car would blow the doors off his bent rear axle car. The race times show that by almost 0.2 seconds. We also placed 7th in districts with the bent rear axle car. The year after with drilled cant'd and same wheel and axle prep, 1st...

 

[3phase]

Vitamin k no one is arguing the method for aligning bent rear axles (or at least im not).
Last year we did the bent rears and the stop eliminated the alignment.

 

[Vitamin K]

- I (or somebody else I know) aligned bent axles with a different method than the one you linked, and therefore bent axles suck.

This is tiring, because it doesn't interact with the actual methodology I'm advocating. Only one person (to my knowledge) to respond to this thread has actually gone that far (I think one other may have skimmed the material). If you haven't interacted with the material and you respond as if you have, there's not much productive conversation that we can have, is there?

AGAIN, this is getting tiring. What we are saying is this site prides itself on teaching proper technique. Drilled rear cant'd is the fastest you can go. You know how I and everyone else who preaches that knows? We tried the bent axles and it wasn't as fast. If you think these guys are saying "dont bend the axles" because they only know drilled cant'd, you're sadly mistaken. Myself and probably almost everyone on here has tried everything under the sun, including bought into a lot of gimmicks out there (i.e. treadmill tuning, bent rear axles and durby dust, well maybe just me on the derby dust...) We condone teaching someone bent rear axles because we know it isn't fast. SO why teach someone a technique that isn't as fast as you could be? Stick to the basics of wheel and axles prep, weighting and design and you'll have a fast scout car. No time? That's ok, nail those other things and you'll still have a fast scout car WITHOUT cant'd rears.

Okay, so let's look at the structure of this argument.

Me: You're saying that the technique isn't good, based on trying a different technique.

You: We all tried the different technique! Therefore yours isn't good!

I think I'm done. Seriously. This is unproductive.

 

[Obsessedderbydad]

You can put whatever words you want in my mouth. what I said and I'll quote in case you skipped over what I said, "We tried the bent axles and it wasn't as fast." I never said your bent axle technique wasn't good. I said it's not the best, so why would you do something that isn't the best if you're racing to be the best? SO AGAIN, I'll say we teach and preach the FASTEST technique and to us the fastest is the best.

Yes, arguing with a non-league racer with nothing to prove but words on a forum is unproductive.

 

[Quicktimederby]

I think the problem is you are saying that LEAGUE cars and SCOUT cars are different. That is not the case a fast car is a fast car PERIOD!! I bet that all that race in any league are not detuning and not using CORRECT, PROVEN, techniques to build a scout car. I KNOW you have a problem with a lot of the stuff that is recommended here especially to the new builders, but do it right the first time, and help others understand the value in quality parts and correct building and you will have racing success every time.

When you do decide to race the fastest scout cars in the world, you will see for your self what most of us have learned. Then hopefully you'll understand, and take your builds to the next level.

 

[Crash Enburn]

Welcome to the Forums, Ironcar!!

 

[bracketracer]

Well, now that the fire's going good.....

FWIW, I peruse the DT site often and I read Mr. Pope's technique back then and watched the videos explaining how to do it. I'm the curious type and it seemed easy enough to try it, test it on my track, and see how it did. Matter of fact, I even sent in a car to a league race (November 2013, SS-AM if you want to look it up.) that used the technique. I did not find it difficult to do or time consuming. In that race I also entered my best straight axle car at the time. Both cars were prepped with the same products and techniques as best I knew how then. The difference? The straight axle car averaged 2.9816, three bent averaged 2.9835. Close enough that I consider them equal. Now, for me, where the difference comes in is when it's time to reprep. After they're both back together the straight axle car gets it's gaps and drift set, the car with three bent gets that plus about ten minutes spent getting the rears aligned on the tuning board. Not a big deal, certainly not worth arguing over.

That being said, I prefer and recommend drilling the cant and using straight axles myself.

 

[DerbyDad4Hire]

VK, the point is bending rear axles is like going around your butt to get to your elbow. The bigger problem is that you can't quite reach you elbow that way. It is not a matter of if you can make make a fast car that way but why would you make it that way. If you did not have the Silver Bullet then simply use the slot and angle the axle in the slot. They will be as parallel as you can get them.

There is no difference in pro racing and scout racing when it comes to how you should build a car for speed. The people that come to the forums want to know the BEST way to build a car not an alternative method that is pushed because that particular forum does not like a certain vendor and will do anything to keep it hidden. The fact is that a bent rear axle car has not won a league race since 2007. It is certainly MUCH cheaper to acquire a drilled block or the tools necessary to do your own than it is to do the bent rear method especially when you factor in the amount of time it takes for your average Joe who will more times than not make his car slower by bending the rear axles. I do know this for a fact because I have worked with thousands of people.

The fact is that winning a scout race is not that hard unless you run into someone who has educated themselves. I see no reason in teaching anything but the most effective way to build especially when the most effective way is also the easiest and quickest.

 

[Obsessedderbydad]

How dare you say what I said but in a more PC and better way

 

[DerbyDad4Hire]

How dare you say what I said but in a more PC and better way

This is like somebody coming in at the end of conversation and thinking they know the entire conversation. There is a lot of history here and VK has no idea where this has been.

 

[Obsessedderbydad]

Facts are facts.

 

[Mr Chips Racing]

See boys,

Chips can still call em. I got Kinser, QT and DD4H to all throw some smack down. This is just like the good 'ol days all over again. Ah yes the history which many will never fully understand. Well I think its time to end this conversation and head out Squatchin' for a while.

 

[bracketracer]

See boys,

Chips can still call em. I got Kinser, QT and DD4H to all throw some smack down. This is just like the good 'ol days all over again. Ah yes the history which many will never fully understand. Well I think its time to end this conversation and head out Squatchin' for a while.

Mr C, does this have to do with the history of how the Silver Bullet got it's name?

 

[DerbyDad4Hire]

Good trivia question... how did the Silver Bullet get its name?

 

[Mr Chips Racing]

I know but don't think its fair for me to share.

 

[Guest]

I'll take a stab at it.

Is it because a few years back on Derby Talk The Block was being discussed in a heated debate, much like this thread, a certain individual claimed that The Block was no "Silver Bullet" ?

 

[bracketracer]

I'll take a stab at it.

Is it because a few years back on Derby Talk The Block was being discussed in a heated debate, much like this thread, a certain individual claimed that The Block was no "Silver Bullet" ?

That was my understanding of it.

 

[OPARENNEN]

Answer: When DD4H and the Jewkes brothers split up, apparently Glen had a whole bunch of his "blocks" on order from an OEM. After the breakup, the Jewkes Engineering lost a lot of business. At that time, JE had a large quantity of blocks on order, and was unable of paying/taking their order. John went to the same OEM to make a semi-duplicate of the "block", and was then told about the large quantity sitting on the bench, but that they had not yet been "anodized" (i.e. colored black); they were still the original silver color of the material. A deal was made, modification made, and thus arrived a silver version of the former block. This occurred years ago, and some of my facts may not be completely accurate, but that is the basic story.