Proposed Scout rules--feedback please

[ninjarabbi1997]

Our Scout district has never had a District PWD race. I asked about it and now I am the Chair of the race. The packs in the district are mostly restrictive rules (4 wheels touching, graphite only) with many things that are hard to inspect or are vague ("may not remove substantial material from wheel tread.")

I am trying to come up with rules that are fair (a scout could do these) and inspectable. Thoughts on these rules? The formatting was lost some when I cut and pasted as well as a bunch of the diagrams. Thanks for any feedback.

General Rules

• 
  The Pinewood Derby is open to all registered Scouts of the Delaware District (for your Pack race, substitute your Pack number).
• 
  Each Scout may enter one (1) car and must be present to be included in the competition.
• 
  Each car must pass a Pre-Race Technical Inspection before it may compete.
• 
  If a car does not pass inspection, the owner will be informed of the reason his car did not pass. Cars, which fail the initial inspection, may be modified and resubmitted as long as it is within the registration time period.
  
  After a car passes inspection, it will be impounded. Once impounded the car cannot be modified or lubricated.
  
  Each Scout is responsible to place their car at the starting line and to retrieve their car at the finish line. If a Scout leaves the race area and does not arrive back in time to stage their car for a heat, the car will automatically lose the heat. If the Scout is physically unable to perform these tasks, a substitute may be selected to perform these duties. The substitute should be of approximately the same age as the entrant.

· Good sportsmanship is expected at all times by everyone present at the race.

• 
  Cars must be constructed from Official Cub Scout Grand Prix Derby Kit since last year’s race.
  The scout is to work on every part of the car, with adult guidance/supervision/help: body, axles, wheels, lubrication, weighting, assembly, and paint/decorating. No completed cars or completed parts may be purchased. A scout is on his honor here.

1. Body Specifications

• Width – not to exceed 2 ¾ inches (7cm)
• Length – not to exceed 7 inches (17.8cm)
• Height – must have clearance under Finishing Gate – not to exceed 3 inches
• Weight – not to exceed 5.0 ounces on the Official Scale.
  • Overweight cars may be reduced to 5.0 ounces or below before they can officially be entered, at the Race Day Check in.
• Center Rail Clearance– Cars must clear the center rail which is 1 5/8 inches wide by ¼ inch tall along the entire length of the car.
• Wheelbase – Can be extended. – Standard wheelbase is 4 3/8 inches from center of front axle to center of back axle. Any wheelbase can be used.
  • Axle holes may be drilled into body of car as long as the rest of the body specifications are met.
  • 4 Axles & Wheels must be installed to the side of the car body directly across from one another / No more than a 45 degree angle
• Staging – No part of the car’s body, wheels, or attachments can extend beyond the starting peg on the track what so ever. Additionally the wheels may not extend beyond the rear of the car or past the front of the car – the length is not to exceed 7 inches.
• The main body structure must be made of pinewood
• Body design may be enhanced by adding other stable materials such as plastic, metal or details. All additions must be firmly attached and conform to size specifications. No loose materials will be allowed on the cars.

2. Prohibited Items that can NOT be used

• Magnets, springs or suspension systems of any type.
• Starting devices, finish line devices, propellants, or propulsion systems
• Liquids, Wet paint, or Sticky substances
• Glass or excessively fragile parts
• Electronic or lighting devices (if lights are on the car they must be turned off)
• Bearings, washers, bushings, sleeves, hubcaps or inserts attached to or in contact with the axle, body or wheels.
• Sharp objects, sandpaper or abrasives on the bottom of car (We do not want any damage to the
  rubber stopping pads)
• Solid one piece rod style axles
• Axles and wheels attached to any device that mechanically alters rotation or spin.

3. Wheels

• Only Official BSA Wheels are allowed (new style, since 2009). You MAY use the Official BSA Colored wheels.
• The following wheel modifications ARE allowed:
  • Outer tread surface of the wheel may be lightly sanded, shaved or polished to remove any imperfections, true roundness, remove mold castings and burrs, but must not be reshaped in any way to minimize tread contact or alter aerodynamics.
  • The fluting (small decorative dots on the tread surface edge) must remain visible around the entire circumference.
  • The tread / contact surface must remain flat and parallel to the bore.
  • Coning the hubs and removing the outer hub step down is allowed.
  • Truing up the inside edge of the wheel; but the width of the tread must not be less than 7.5mm.
  • Wheel Bore treatment is allowed including polishing, sanding and / or tapping.

· The following wheel modifications are NOT allowed:

• • No removing or reducing the letters or spokes or drilling additional holes.
  • No removal of any material from the inside of the wheel (no lightening wheels).
  • No Filling of any wheel surface with any type of material; wheel bores may not be filled and re-drilled.
  • No Rounding of the wheel treads – they must remain flat.
  • No Grooving, H-cutting, V-cutting, Crowing, Tapering, Dishing, Wafering or Reshaping,
  • No Narrowing of the tread surface (other than truing the inside edge) or Altering the wheel profile
• There must be at least four wheels on the car, however it is not required that all four wheels make contact with the track surface – one wheel may be lifted from the track surface.
  • Each wheel must be mounted on an axle, on the outside of the car, on the vertical side of the car.
  • Each wheel must be attached by an axle and spin freely

4. Axles

• Only the nail type axles as found in the Official Pinewood Derby kit are to be used.
• Axle modifications ALLOWED:
  • De-burring the head-to-shaft flanges, filing off milling marks, straightening, sanding, polishing, canting, grooving, beveling & tapering of axle head.
  • The axle diameter may not be less than .084 inches (2.13mm).
• Axles can be mounted by drilling Axle holes or inserted into the slots on car.
• Axles may NOT be plated (such as with chrome, Teflon or nickel) to reduce friction or increase diameter.

5. Lubrication

· Any lubricant may be used, but it must be “dry on the axle” at the time of inspection (will not shed on the track). All excess lubrication must be removed before it passes inspection. Do not coat your wheel tread surface with graphite or other lubricant that will foul the track.

· Recommended lubes: graphite, Teflon powder, NyOil, Krytox 100 (1-2 drops is plenty).

 

[tmeyer]

You may want to add under the Axles section:

Bending of axles to aid in steering the car is allowed.

 

[Quicktimederby]

I don't know if I would put the BSA axle only. It would be way to hard to enforce. Also state that the wheel must roll on the said axles.

 

[Falcon777]

I would also state that any car that appears to be professionally built by outside vendors are prohibited. The scout may be asked to provide proof that the car was built by the scout. The reason I say this is the 3 time champion in our distric race bought cars professionally built by an outside vendor. When pressed a few months later, the Scout admitted to it. We are now trying to design rules to address this issue.

 

[bracketracer]

I think this rule would cover the pro built cars:

"Cars must be constructed from Official Cub Scout Grand Prix Derby Kit since last year’s race.
The scout is to work on every part of the car, with adult guidance/supervision/help: body, axles, wheels, lubrication, weighting, assembly, and paint/decorating. No completed cars or completed parts may be purchased. A scout is on his honor here."

Our rules also specify a minimum diameter for the wheels, having it say that the tread edge must be on the wheel does about the same thing but the diameter is easy to measure as a pass/fail. You know some dad is going to turn them down until the "pie crust" is barely there. I know I would! lol!

 

[Guest]

I don't know how to enforce the pro built cars. But, I do like what 1 pack did in our area. The rules where standard in the box ones with 1 amendment "If it didn't come in the official box you can't use it".

 

[Quicktimederby]

So you can't add weight? Paint? Stickers? So on.

I don't know how to enforce the pro built cars. But, I do like what 1 pack did in our area. The rules where standard in the box ones with 1 amendment "If it didn't come in the official box you can't use it".

 

[DerbyDad4Hire]

I would also state that any car that appears to be professionally built by outside vendors are prohibited. The scout may be asked to provide proof that the car was built by the scout. The reason I say this is the 3 time champion in our distric race bought cars professionally built by an outside vendor. When pressed a few months later, the Scout admitted to it. We are now trying to design rules to address this issue.

What happens if my kid moves into your pack?

The race is supposed to be fun. Don't make a rule you can't absolutely inspect or judge on without opinion. There is no excuse to not be able to make a fast car for free using this forum. Too much cheating going on with the leaders running the races.

 

[Guest]

So you can't add weight? Paint? Stickers? So on.

I don't know how to enforce the pro built cars. But, I do like what 1 pack did in our area. The rules where standard in the box ones with 1 amendment "If it didn't come in the official box you can't use it".

Actually, Yes that is exactly what they wanted. Whatever was allowed on paper rules in the box. They held a workshop 2 weekends in a row and all CUBs that wanted to race had to attend the Workshop and build the car there. If weights were allowed it was under the supervision of the Leaders of the DENs. It sounds like a lot of work, but I guess its one way to keep it fair to a certain extent.

 

[DerbyDad4Hire]

So you can't add weight? Paint? Stickers? So on.

I don't know how to enforce the pro built cars. But, I do like what 1 pack did in our area. The rules where standard in the box ones with 1 amendment "If it didn't come in the official box you can't use it".

Actually, Yes that is exactly what they wanted. Whatever was allowed on paper rules in the box. They held a workshop 2 weekends in a row and all CUBs that wanted to race had to attend the Workshop and build the car there. If weights were allowed it was under the supervision of the Leaders of the DENs. It sounds like a lot of work, but I guess its one way to keep it fair to a certain extent.

I have seen this many times and the leaders doing the work shops insert a different car for their son when the race comes. I shart you not, the amount of cheating with leaders in pinewood derby for their sons is absolutely astounding.

 

[Guest]

So you can't add weight? Paint? Stickers? So on.

I don't know how to enforce the pro built cars. But, I do like what 1 pack did in our area. The rules where standard in the box ones with 1 amendment "If it didn't come in the official box you can't use it".

Actually, Yes that is exactly what they wanted. Whatever was allowed on paper rules in the box. They held a workshop 2 weekends in a row and all CUBs that wanted to race had to attend the Workshop and build the car there. If weights were allowed it was under the supervision of the Leaders of the DENs. It sounds like a lot of work, but I guess its one way to keep it fair to a certain extent
.

I have seen this many times and the leaders doing the work shops insert a different car for their son when the race comes. I shart you not, the amount of cheating with leaders in pinewood derby for their sons is absolutely astounding.

NO way, that's crazy. So much for Scouts HONOR!!! I like winning, but I still make my kid do 85% to 90% of the work. He's learned all the different tools I use and how to work them safely. He learned the tricks that make it fast. This year he is 100% on his own. I'm staying away from it. I am going to help a few other kids in other den's and packs. Just because I like helping out.

 

[bracketracer]

What happens if my kid moves into your pack?

Then we would have the test & tune at your house! I'll bring the BBQ!

 

[Guest]

What happens if my kid moves into your pack?

Then we would have the test & tune at your house! I'll bring the BBQ!

OHHHH YAAAA!!! BBQ! When and where again!!!
I'm going to see the BLUES play tonight, courtesy of a vendor of our company. FREE FOOD and Drinks. Man its good to be the KING!!!

 

[bracketracer]

You had me at FREE FOOD!

Hopefully the Blues can take care of the Wild tonight.

 

[bracketracer]

Just to swerve this thread back on track, Ninjarabbi, does this rule:

"Each Scout is responsible to place their car at the starting line and to retrieve their car at the finish line. If a Scout leaves the race area and does not arrive back in time to stage their car for a heat, the car will automatically lose the heat. If the Scout is physically unable to perform these tasks, a substitute may be selected to perform these duties. The substitute should be of approximately the same age as the entrant."

only apply to Scouts that are physically handicapped in some way or also for the boys with sports or family obligations that can't be present during the whole race? We had several boys that came and went as they were able but we still got their cars staged and raced in their absence. Hate to see a kid miss out just because his schedule is overbooked or a game runs long.

 

[Papa V Racing]

Ninja....

Sent email of the rules to you ...

The only thing I like about our rules it allows wheels to be drilled and extended wheel bases...

My son will do everything except using the table saw... I will be video taping everything he does on this car... Let them say what they want but my kiddo will build, drill and sand, cut and shape his car and Paint or use markers to finish his car... Dad will place weights and tape...

Papa V

 

[Falcon777]

 

[Falcon777]

Remember, there are a lot of scouts with single mothers and no help, no tools no workshops. These rules sound ideal for someone who has a father with tools, a work shop, and a computer to get onto this this site. Not all kids are this lucky. I have no problem with allowing kids to get creative and use items outside the box that can be purchased at the local hobby shop but are official BSA. when you put huge restrictions on the rules, you really are eliminating completion and allowing only those boys with fathers who have time and tools to really compete. Remember MOST kids are not as fortunate as us.

 

[ninjarabbi1997]

Falcon,

Good point, I thought about this too. The way I see it as that could be said of any area of life: reading--your parents read to you as a kid, basketball--they played with you and sent you to camp, the raingutter regatta, cub scout campouts where you bring your own camping equipment--anyone without the help, tools and workshops would be at a disadvantage. This is where others can step up, children can learn sportsmanship, learn to win and lose well in life, etc.

I defintely see your point. I am just not sure the answer is to bring down the kids who have learned to make a car fast, will put the time into it, etc.

What I was looking for is: are the rules I posted inspectable? Could it be done by a scout with adult help/guidance/assistance? To me, that is a fair, fun derby. What is not fun are rules that aren't inspectable with kids competing against cars from a super stock class when the rules say street stock (for example).

Thanks guys for your feedback so far, it has helped me make some tweaks!

 

[g.o.racing]

the best thing to do is put on a work shop or two I take a band saw and a table top drill press and also the jig from derby works to hand drill the axle holes this is a great tool for scouts even if you have to use the slots it makes them straight. I know a lot of the guys here put down the tools from derby works I have all of them and you can build a sub three car with them at the kitchen table I don't use them here but I would never get rid of them