Proposed Scout rules--feedback please

[g.o.racing]

after thought

most of the time the single moms and there scouts are in the finals because they don't pretend to know it all and pay attention

 

[W racing]

Once a car passes inspection it can no longer be disqualified except for DNF. Post race teardowns are the worst...

 

[W racing]

You might re-write this: De-burring the head-to-shaft flanges, filing off milling marks, straightening, sanding, polishing, canting, grooving, beveling & tapering of axle head.

TO say:

De-burring the head-to-shaft flanges, filing off milling marks, straightening, sanding, polishing, canting, grooving, beveling of axle head and tapering of axle head.

Axles are hard to inspect for and I would prefer rules that allowed any axles however such a rule is rare... With that rule Awana axles would be made readily available for purchase or as a free upgrade to the kit...

 

[ninjarabbi1997]

That's great, thanks!

 

[IAE Racing]

I'm sorry, DNF???

 

[bracketracer]

Did Not Finish. The car did not cross the finish line in a heat. Lost a wheel, had an off track excursion, etc.

 

[W racing]

Recommend changing: Once a car passes inspection it can no longer be disqualified except for DNF. Post race teardowns are the worst...

to simply: Once a car passes inspection it can no longer be disqualified.

 

[W racing]

 

[W racing]

I would change:

After a car passes inspection, it will be impounded. Once impounded the car cannot be modified or lubricated.

To:

After a car passes inspection, it will be impounded. Once impounded the car cannot be re-inspected, modified or lubricated. However cars damaged during racing can be repaired in a timely fashion. Also cars that do not make it down the track can be mended to allow them to finish the race.

I would change:

Cars must be constructed from Official Cub Scout Grand Prix Derby Kit since last year’s race.
The scout is to work on every part of the car, with adult guidance/supervision/help: body, axles, wheels, lubrication, weighting, assembly, and paint/decorating. No completed cars or completed parts may be purchased. A scout is on his honor here.

To:

Cars must be constructed from Official Cub Scout Grand Prix Derby Kit since last year’s race.
The scout is to work on the car with adult guidance/supervision/help. Adults may cut the body out. However scouts should sand the body and assist in all aspects of preparation for the axles, wheels, lubrication, weighting, assembly, and paint/decorating.

No completed cars or completed parts may be purchased. A scout is on his honor here.

I think the last part helps with single parents and parents without tools. In addition it encourages adults to use the bandsaw etc instead of the child.

Just my 2 cents...

 

[ninjarabbi1997]

One more question on the rules. Want to use the Max V Go/No Go Wheel Gauge for the Inspection. We will use the 1.170" for the outer diameter. What should we use for the wheel width? NPWDRL uses a 7.5mm minimum tread width. What does this translate to for wheel width?

The Max V gauge has .360" and .320".

Thanks,

Jim

 

[~JBD RACING~]

I wouldn't worry about diameter.. That much just check the inside and width.

 

[Crash Enburn]

One more question on the rules. Want to use the Max V Go/No Go Wheel Gauge for the Inspection. We will use the 1.170" for the outer diameter. What should we use for the wheel width? NPWDRL uses a 7.5mm minimum tread width. What does this translate to for wheel width?

The Max V gauge has .360" and .320".

Thanks,

Jim

7.5mm = 0.295"

Also, if you wouldn't mind, please post up the final version of your rules here. We are going to be chartering our Pack/Troop as a new Trail Life USA troop in January, and would like to continue our PWD-ish racing. We'll probably want to stray from the rules used by our district (four wheels running flat would probably be the first to go), and so will be wanting some new, fair, fun rules.

TIA,

- Eric

 

[Obsessedderbydad]

So you can't add weight? Paint? Stickers? So on.

I don't know how to enforce the pro built cars. But, I do like what 1 pack did in our area. The rules where standard in the box ones with 1 amendment "If it didn't come in the official box you can't use it".

Actually, Yes that is exactly what they wanted. Whatever was allowed on paper rules in the box. They held a workshop 2 weekends in a row and all CUBs that wanted to race had to attend the Workshop and build the car there. If weights were allowed it was under the supervision of the Leaders of the DENs. It sounds like a lot of work, but I guess its one way to keep it fair to a certain extent
.

I have seen this many times and the leaders doing the work shops insert a different car for their son when the race comes. I shart you not, the amount of cheating with leaders in pinewood derby for their sons is absolutely astounding.

NO way, that's crazy. So much for Scouts HONOR!!! I like winning, but I still make my kid do 85% to 90% of the work. He's learned all the different tools I use and how to work them safely. He learned the tricks that make it fast. This year he is 100% on his own. I'm staying away from it. I am going to help a few other kids in other den's and packs. Just because I like helping out.

This is to be expected, but I wasn't going to let my 7 year old do much of the work as a tiger cub. Sanding, painting, adding weights was pretty much the extent of my comfort with him. I took the burrs off the tires, cut the design he wanted and prep'd the wheels. I will say, his tasks become greater and greater as he progresses through scouts. For example this year all I'm doing is the cutting. Whatever else he wants done is on him. I'll tell him what will make it go faster, but as far as the work goes, it's on him with my supervision and a little help. I ask him every year though, do you want a fast car or cool design? Of course he chooses fast because that wins the trophy. Will I use oil on his? No because rules state dry lube only. I am a den leader in our pack, but teaching my son how to do things and just working on the car is more important than winning. I have purchased from john before and will again, but thats for myself when i enter in the national races as well as the den leader race we have. I also offered to build cars for kids who have parents or guardians that can't or won't build one for them, so my hands are going to be tied.

 

[bracketracer]

I wouldn't worry about diameter.. That much just check the inside and width.

+1. IMHO, weight of the wheel matters more than diameter!

 

[ninjarabbi1997]

Here are the rules. Thanks for all of your input. Tried to make them inspectable and things any scout can do with some good guidance or even tools sold at the Scout store. I am not sure if the picture of the wheel markings and the axle will show up.

2014 Delaware District Pinewood Derby Rules



General Rules

· Most important: HAVE FUN!

· Open to all registered Scouts of the Delaware District who placed in the top 3 of their Den.

· Each Scout may enter one (1) car and must be present to be included in the competition.

· Good sportsmanship is expected at all times by everyone present at the race.

• Cars must be constructed since last year’s race. Scout may enter a different car than Pack race.
• The scout is to work on every part of the car, with adult guidance/supervision/help: body, axles, wheels, lubrication, weighting, assembly, and paint/decorating. Adults may cut the body out.
• No completed cars or completed parts may be purchased. A Scout is on his honor here.

Car Body/Dimensions

· Wheel Base: Any (you may drill axle holes or use the slots provided or cut new slots)

· Height: 3" inches Maximum

· Length: 7" inches Maximum

· Width: 2 3/4" inches Maximum

· Weight: 5.0 ounces Maximum as measured on the Official Scale

· Center Rail Clearance– minimum 3/8 inch clearance under the entire bottom of the car.


Wheels

· Only Official BSA Wheels are allowed (new style, since 2009). You MAY use the Official BSA Colored wheels.

· 4 BSA Axles & 4 BSA Wheels must be installed on the side of the car body directly across from one another at no more than a 45 degree angle; one wheel MAY be lifted from the track surface.

· May be shaved, polished, and/or sanded to true tread surface.

· The tread surface must remain flat and parallel to the bore.

· No angling, reshaping, rounding, crowning, tapering, H-ing, V-ing, or grooving the tread surface of the wheel.

· Minimum Tread Width of 7.5mm (will be checked with digital calipers or a Wheel gauge).

· No removing of any material from the inside of the wheel to reduce weight.

· Lettering must remain intact on the inside and outside of the wheels.

· Step removal, and hub coning is allowed.

• The fluting (small decorative dots on the tread surface edge) must remain visible around the entire circumference (so don’t get carried away sanding, polishing, etc.).

• Wheel Bore treatment is allowed including polishing, sanding and/or tapping.
• No washers, bushings, sleeves, bearings, hubcaps or inserts; wheel bore may not be filled or re-drilled.

Axles

· Only the nail type axles as found in the Official BSA kit are to be used. NO SUBSTITUTIONS!

• Axle modifications ALLOWED:

o De-burring the head-to-shaft flanges, filing off milling marks, straightening, sanding, polishing, canting, grooving, bending of axles to aid in steering/alignment, beveling of axle head, and tapering of axle head.

• Axles can be mounted by drilling Axle holes, cutting new slots, or inserted into the existing slots.
• Axles may NOT be plated (such as with chrome, Teflon or nickel) to reduce friction or increase diameter.
• Wheel must spin on said axle.

Lubricants

· Any lubricant may be used, but it must be “dry on the axle” at the time of inspection (will not shed on the track). All excess lubrication must be removed before it passes inspection. Do not coat your wheel tread surface with graphite or other lubricant that will foul the track.

· Recommended lubes: graphite, Teflon powder, NyOil, Krytox 100 (1-2 drops for oil is plenty).


Reasons for Disqualification
Magnets, starting or finish line devices, electronic or lighting devices (must be turned off—can affect finish line sensors), glass, fragile parts, wet paint, sticky material or substances, sharp objects, sandpaper, parts beyond the starting peg, propellants, wheels and axles attached to mechanical rotating devices, not passing inspection.



Inspection Procedure

· Cars will be weighed and measured for “Car Body/Dimension” requirements.

· Wheels measured and inspected for compliance (especially for weight removed from inside).

· All axle heads will be inspected to ensure they are BSA axles and given a “magnet test.” Non-magnetic stainless steel, titanium or other aftermarket axles are easily detected even though they are meant to resemble BSA axles.

· Loose materials on cars will be removed.

· Check for shedding of excess lubricant

ADULT/OPEN DIVISION RULES



· Each car must pass a Pre-Race Technical Inspection based on the following rules:

o The above “General” and “Car Body/Dimension” “Lubricants” and “Reasons for Disqualification” rules apply completely

o Wheels: any kind of wheel

§ No greater than 1.22 inches (31mm) wheel diameter

o Axle: any kind of axle

• • Washers, bushings, sleeves, bearings, hubcaps or inserts ARE ALLOWED; wheel bore MAY be filled or re-drilled.

· Each Adult may enter one (1) car and must be present to be included in the competition.

· Trophies will be awarded to 1[sup]st[/sup], 2[sup]nd[/sup] and 3[sup]rd[/sup] place.

 

[ninjarabbi1997]

I changed the rules a bit after talking to Greg Dawes at the Mid-America race. I also included links to 5KidsRacing's awesome info to www.PinewoodDerbyOnline.com as well. Here are our FINAL rules (I know you are all jealous /images/boards/smilies/biggrin.gif)--thanks again for all of your help:

General Rules

· Most important: HAVE FUN!

· Open to all registered Scouts of the Delaware District who placed in the top 3 of their Den.

· Each Scout may enter one (1) car and must be present to be included in the competition.

· Good sportsmanship is expected at all times by everyone present at the race.

· Cars must be constructed since last year’s race. Scout may enter a different car than Pack race.

· The scout is to work on every part of the car, with adult guidance/supervision/help: body, axles, wheels, lubrication, weighting, assembly, and paint/decorating. Adults may cut the body out.

· No completed cars or completed parts may be purchased. A Scout is on his honor here.



Car Body/Dimensions

· Wheel Base: Any (you may drill axle holes or use the slots provided or cut new slots)

· Height: 3" inches Maximum

· Length: 7" inches Maximum

· Width: 2 3/4" inches Maximum

· Weight: 5.0 ounces Maximum as measured on the Official Scale

· Center Rail Clearance– minimum 3/8 inch clearance under the entire bottom of the car.


Wheels

· Only Official BSA Wheels are allowed (either new style & old style). ALL markings must be intact inside and outside wheel. You MAY use the Official BSA Colored wheels.

· Outer wheel surface may be sanded, shaved, lathed or polished to remove any imperfections, true roundness, remove mold castings and burrs, but must not be reshaped in any way to minimize tread contact or alter aerodynamics.

• • The fluting (small decorative dots on the edge) must remain visible around the entire circumference.
  • The tread/contact surface must remain flat and parallel to the bore.
  • The width of the tread must not be less than 7.5mm
  • No removing or reducing the letters or spokes or drilling additional holes.
• The following wheel modifications are NOT Allowed
  • No Rounding of the wheel treads – they must remain flat.
  • No Grooving, H-cutting, V-cutting, Crowing, Tapering or Dishing
  • No Narrowing of the tread surface or Altering the wheel profile
  • No Drilling sidewalls
  • No Filling of any wheel surface with any type of material
• Coning the hubs, truing the inside edge of the wheel, and removing the outer hub step down is allowed.
• Wheel Bore treatment is allowed including polishing, sanding and/or tapping.
  • Wheel bores may not be filled and re-drilled
• There must be at least four wheels on the car, however it is not required that all four wheels make contact with the track surface – one wheel may be lifted from the track surface.
  • Each wheel must be mounted on an axle, on the outside of the car, on the vertical side of the car.

o Each wheel must be attached by an axle and spin freely



Axles

· Nail type axles as found in the Official Pinewood Derby kit are to be used.

· Axle modifications ALLOWED:

o De-burring the head-to-shaft flanges, filing off milling marks, straightening, sanding, polishing, canting, grooving, bending of axles to aid in steering/alignment,
beveling of axle head, and tapering of axle head.

· Axles can be mounted by drilling Axle holes, cutting new slots, or inserted into the existing slots.

• Wheel must spin on said axle.
• Diameter may not be less than .084 inches (2.13mm).

Lubricants

· Any lubricant may be used, but it must be “dry on the axle” at the time of inspection (will not shed on the track). All excess lubrication must be removed before it passes inspection. Do not coat your wheel tread surface with graphite or other lubricant that will foul the track.

· Recommended lubes: graphite, Teflon powder, NyOil, Krytox 100 (1-2 drops for oil is plenty).


Reasons for Disqualification
Magnets, starting or finish line devices, electronic or lighting devices (if lights are on the car they must be turned off), glass, liquids (besides lubricant), fragile parts, wet paint, sticky material or substances, sharp objects, sandpaper, parts beyond the starting peg, propellants, wheels and axles attached to any device that mechanically alters rotation or spin, springs or suspension systems of any type, solid one-piece rod style axles.

· No bushings, sleeves, bearings, hubcaps or inserts attached to or in contact with the axle, body or wheels.



Helpful Resources

· Tools specifically designed for pinewood derby cars are available at www.ScoutStuff.org.

· Helpful car building websites include: http://5kidsracing.webs.com/cubscoutbuildtips.htm; www.PineWoodDerbyOnline.com; www.DerbyTalk.com

Inspection Procedure

· Cars will be weighed and measured for “Car Body/Dimension” requirements.

· Wheels measured (minimum 7.5mm tread width) and inspected for compliance (they are Official BSA wheels, all lettering and markings are intact inside and outside, “fluting” remains visible around circumference of the wheel, tread is flat and parallel to the bore).

· Loose materials on cars will be removed.

· Check for shedding of excess lubricant.

· Check for “Reasons for Disqualification”

 

[IAE Racing]

Can I race in you District? Please??

 

[IAE Racing]

Seriously, I like this rule set. Everything can be measured and verified before the race. No need for a post race teardown 'cause there is nothing to prove at that point. If someone yells "cheater" they would most likely have a mute point.

I like this rule set for a bigger event like districts because of the wheels. While I support the derby industry, a $40 set of wheels gets a little spendy for a pack race. At the same point, there is going to be some cheetahs beating nitro's due to builder abilities.

Just my 1.5 cents