Thank you!

[Railin]

Hi Guys,
I want to say thank you all for the great advise.
My son had a great time this year because of all your helpful advise.
He won every race and was the fastest car the track owner had ever seen.

On to District!

I'm guessing the tech inspection at district wont allow my light wheels, so probably will need to get some BASX's.

Heres the rules:

Wheels and Axle Assembly:
[list type=decimal][*]
Only the wheels supplied with the official Cub Scout derby kit may be used. Cars with modified or old-style wheels will be disqualified.
[*]
Wheels must not be modified including the contact area to the track surface; the wheel surface must remain flat.
[*]
You may not narrow the wheels, reduce the diameter or round them to reduce surface friction nor lighten wheels by drilling holes in them.
[*]
Burrs on the wheels may be removed and imperfections may be sanded smooth.
[*]
Wheel bearings, washers, bushings, and modifications to the axle holes are prohibited.
[*]
The car shall not ride on any type of springs.
[*]
Only the axles supplied with the official Cub Scout derby kit may be used. Burrs on the axles may be removed and polished if desired. No other modifications such as grooving, tapering, etc… are permitted!
[*]
Dry Lubricant can be applied only to the axle wheel area. No application of lubricant is permitted on exposed surfaces of the wheels.
[*]
Axle wheel covers are prohibited. (I.E. putting hubcaps on to keep the wheel axles full of lubricant)

I don't see any reason I couldn't use them, but guessing they will be considered "Modified"

I sent an email to ask what hey considered "modified", still no reply.

Thanks again!

[/list type=decimal]

 

[KTMracer]

We had similar rules for our scout race. I ordered the most unmodified BASX. They are basically just hand selected to be a good wheel and then the outside is barely touched on the lathe just to make it perfectly round. If it was me I'd get a set of the 1.180 BASX and fully prep them. Also, bring a set of prepped completely untouched stock BSA wheels just in case they question the outside of the BASX. The BASX definitely has the nice dull sanded look and they might not like it.

 

[OPARENNEN]

As for lubricant, I would still use DD4H's oil. Only two drops several days before the race. By race day it is the same as dry. But two drops per axles means only 2!
However, I would still coat the inside outer edges (the part of the wheel that might touch the track's edge) of the wheels with graphite. Use either a cloth or qtip to apply (nut nowhere near the wheel hubs.

PS, the axle rule is crazy. It takes at least 25 of the kit nails to find four good ones. I would buy those also. There are plenty available that look exactly like BSA nails. But get the one's without any grove, and then prep them carefully with a leather strap in such a way that you are polishing the inside of the nail's head.

 

[Railin]

Thanks for the replies guys.
I'm hoping I will get an answer to my email to district sometime soon.
I will let you know what they say.

 

[Obsessedderbydad]

I like how their rules contradict themselves. You can't modify the wheels, but you can smooth imperfections. You'll be fine with BASX wheels. You can't tell they are modified

 

[Railin]

I like how their rules contradict themselves. You can't modify the wheels, but you can smooth imperfections. You'll be fine with BASX wheels. You can't tell they are modified

Exactly!
So if I decide the whole wheel is imperfect, I should be able to do anything to perfect it.... right. Ha Ha

 

[Railin]

Reply from District in Red

I want to be sure I dont have a misconception about what modified wheels means.
Scout Derby rules below.

[list type=decimal][*]Only the wheels supplied with the official Cub Scout derby kit may be used. Cars with modified or old-style wheels will be disqualified. Yes, if there are modified you can be disqualified.[*]Wheels must not be modified including the contact area to the track surface; the wheel surface must remain flat. This is the definition of modifications we will be looking for, and can get the car disqualified.[*]You may not narrow the wheels, reduce the diameter or round them to reduce surface friction nor lighten wheels by drilling holes in them. This is also modifications we will be looking for.[*]Burrs on the wheels may be removed and imperfections may be sanded smooth. This is correct.[/list type=decimal]
When I see the comment about modified wheels, I assume they are talking about the guide lines they list after

that as an example of a modified wheel. Is that a safe assumption? Yes

Would it be safe to say that if the contact surface area is flat, the diameter is close to original, it's not narrowed, and no holes drilled in it that it would pass tech? Yes

I guess maybe I need an example of a modified wheel??? I will have examples on display at the event.

If a wheel is put in a truing device to be sure it is round, Is that considered modified? No, but to extremes.

If the wheels are made to be equal weights? Is that considered modified? If this is done in extreme it could be see as illegal, but we would have to review to rule on it.

Glad they replied, but it seem a bit late to see the examples of a modified wheel at the event???

Railin

 

[ngyoung]

Looks like they pretty much locked it down to just the BASX wheel. Truing the wheel to the bore pretty much falls under light sanding to remove mold marks. The new wheels have their worst mold marks in the outer hub double step. Having the double step removed though they may call that illegal. Most really won't notice it was removed with the axle head covering it doesn't look much different to the untrained eye. I would ask specifically if that would make it an illegal modification. A persuasive person may be able to justify it as removing mold marks.

 

[Obsessedderbydad]

Basically dont narrow the wheel width, dont drill holes, and dont cut the tread to a V or H shape and you're good. BASX wheels and you're good to go.

 

[Pacfanweb]

I bet you could go with Cheetahs and they'd never notice. We have Dynasty Rage's and they've run at 2 district races and not a word has been said. Same rules. They put these rules down that they get off the internet, but unless they have a pinehead doing the inspecting, they don't really know what they're looking at, other than something really obvious. (like modified tread or holes in the sidewall)

What that reply tells me is that they're looking for someone who rounded or "H" cut the tread, or obviously lightened the wheels.

I don't know what wheels you currently have, but I'd bet they work.

As far as axles, DD4H has stock axles that are machined perfectly straight if you're that worried about it, but nobody would ever be able to tell with his other axles.

 

[Vitamin K]

Well, allow me to be the dissenter here. It doesn't say "dry at the time of the race", it says "dry lubricant." Anything that flows out of a bottle in droplets is not "dry".

Also, I think you could make a case for running BASX wheels, since those really are just "imperfection removed", but Cheetahs are definitely naughty.

The rules say BSA axles only. If you're allowed to buy extra tubes of wheels/axles, you might be able to get by with using the Revell axles, which are straighter and smoother.

"Nobody will be able to tell" is the worst reason in the world to use illegal parts in a Scout race. Regardless of what the rules are, you should be able to follow them and win if you follow the principles outlined in so many of the other posts on this forum.

Then, after districts are over and you've still got the racing bug, buy those machined wheels and axles and league-race with them.

 

[Railin]

Thanks everyone,
I'm would love to use the Rage's, but I think that is pushing the rules a bit.
I'm going with the BASX just to be sure there are no issues.
I'm sure there will be others there with better wheels, but I will sleep better this way

 

[Obsessedderbydad]

Well, allow me to be the dissenter here. It doesn't say "dry at the time of the race", it says "dry lubricant." Anything that flows out of a bottle in droplets is not "dry".

So then, by your justification, the use a pledge on the axles would be illegal.

 

[Vitamin K]

Well, allow me to be the dissenter here. It doesn't say "dry at the time of the race", it says "dry lubricant." Anything that flows out of a bottle in droplets is not "dry".

So then, by your justification, the use a pledge on the axles would be illegal.

If the rules say "dry at the time of the race", you could probably use something like Pledge or silicone and be technically okay. Some would go so far as to say that this clause would allow for oil, but since you can wick oil off of an axle with a piece of paper, I would argue that this is not "dry at the time of racing."

But anybody trying to say that oil, which is a liquid, dispensed with a dropper, can somehow be okay with a rule that says "dry lubricant only" is just being morally dishonest with themselves.

For what it is worth, I chose not to have the kids use Pledge on their axle for our pack-level and district-level races.

 

[zeebzob]

Any race that has a rule saying "dry lubricant only" should be boycotted. The race organizers should be hanged, beheaded, drawn, quartered and have their entrails cut out and burned.

Well, OK. That maybe going a little far. They can keep the entrails.
I hate graphite. Nothing but a mess.

 

[Vitamin K]

Any race that has a rule saying "dry lubricant only" should be boycotted. The race organizers should be hanged, beheaded, drawn, quartered and have their entrails cut out and burned.

Well, OK. That maybe going a little far. They can keep the entrails.
I hate graphite. Nothing but a mess.

I do think that the time has probably come for graphite-only races to be phased out. The problems that oils have had historically have been mitigated, and they no longer are a danger to track or wheels. They're also readily available, as you can buy Krytox in the Scout stores.

I'm actually pushing for our District this year to allow oil lubricants. We'll see how that goes.

In the meantime, there's a lot of historical precedent at the Scouting level that is going to persist for a while. While we can do our best to change these rules, as long as they are in place, we should endeavor to follow them in the spirit of honesty and fair play.

 

[DerbyDad4Hire]

Well, allow me to be the dissenter here. It doesn't say "dry at the time of the race", it says "dry lubricant." Anything that flows out of a bottle in droplets is not "dry".

So then, by your justification, the use a pledge on the axles would be illegal.

If the rules say "dry at the time of the race", you could probably use something like Pledge or silicone and be technically okay. Some would go so far as to say that this clause would allow for oil, but since you can wick oil off of an axle with a piece of paper, I would argue that this is not "dry at the time of racing."

But anybody trying to say that oil, which is a liquid, dispensed with a dropper, can somehow be okay with a rule that says "dry lubricant only" is just being morally dishonest with themselves.

For what it is worth, I chose not to have the kids use Pledge on their axle for our pack-level and district-level races.

Some would say using these message boards would be morally dishonest. Let's refrain from judging each others moral standards. If you think it is wrong then don't do it. Let's spend the energy trying to change stupid rules.

 

[Obsessedderbydad]

I agree John, but on the same token, we dont want these dad's thinking we're cheating when we say certain things. I.E. pledge on axles. By the rule, there's nothing illegal about it, but opinions would contradict that. As you've stated before and on your website, check your local rules to make sure the products you sell are legal for their race. At some point, people need to realize what we're saying do is our own interpretation of the rule. Going back to pledge again, is it wet, yes, does it show wet on race day, no. Would that make it illegal? Depends on your tech. I also agree that more engery needs to be spent on educating people that think they can make rules "fair" for everyone.

 

[DerbyDad4Hire]

If you are winning then you are cheating according to those dads. I will tell you right now that if the rules say dry lube then I will be running oil. It appears dry and that falls into the grey area of the rule. The losers don't like it but finding the loopholes is part of the race.

 

[Pacfanweb]

There is no way Pledge is against the rules.

It dries. Totally. Ever used it on furniture? Did your furniture stay wet?

Plenty of things start off wet and end up dry. The rule in no way means "must start off dry". Just means that it can't be a wet lube. If it's not wet while it's doing the lubricating, it's dry.