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- Thread starter DerbyDad4Hire
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I have a question or opinion on the Amature class. IMHO any cars that are beating half the cars in the Pro class should be moved up immediately.
Long long ago, I decided to begin racing "downhill" and "giant Slalom". I had skied for a long time, but never raced. There were three classes, A, B & C, and of course I was put into C, the armature class. I ended up with a time that was second fastest overall. We had a skiing organization that kept track of all the junior racers, Right on the spot, they immediately moved me from C to A, saying it would be obviously unfair for you to be in B or C, because it would discourage new less advanced entrants.
We should do something similar, maybe pick a time somewhere in the middle of the Pro class, and anyone who is better than that time becomes a Pro, right on the spot. E.g. 5 amatures were in the 2.95's and approximately a dozen were faster than 2.9650. Thes guys were obviously at the Pro level. I say, in the future, move them up on the spot, after we see the pro results.
Somehow the amateur class needs to attract all these BSA dads who read this forum, and are enticed to enter their first or second place cars in a NPWDRL event.
That's what happened to me last year. I helped my grandson build a car which took 1st place in Pack, District, then Council. Another son pointed me to the P**R forum, and encouraged us to enter my grandsons car there. I fully expected the car to be in the top 5 or so. We were 36th out of 37 cars. Big Wake Up. But I was captured enough to stay in the league for every subsequent race. I believe that was also the first race for QuickTime.
The Amateur class need to be set up to capture the interest of dads like me and QuickTime. Just reading this forum the last two months, it seems to me that there are a dozen or more dads really into PW racing at the scout level. We need to encourage those dads to enter their son/daughter cars into our amateur class.
So no matter whether an amateur racer is son or dad (or even a RINGER), if his time reaches a certain point, immediatly up to the pro class. IMHO
Long long ago, I decided to begin racing "downhill" and "giant Slalom". I had skied for a long time, but never raced. There were three classes, A, B & C, and of course I was put into C, the armature class. I ended up with a time that was second fastest overall. We had a skiing organization that kept track of all the junior racers, Right on the spot, they immediately moved me from C to A, saying it would be obviously unfair for you to be in B or C, because it would discourage new less advanced entrants.
We should do something similar, maybe pick a time somewhere in the middle of the Pro class, and anyone who is better than that time becomes a Pro, right on the spot. E.g. 5 amatures were in the 2.95's and approximately a dozen were faster than 2.9650. Thes guys were obviously at the Pro level. I say, in the future, move them up on the spot, after we see the pro results.
Somehow the amateur class needs to attract all these BSA dads who read this forum, and are enticed to enter their first or second place cars in a NPWDRL event.
That's what happened to me last year. I helped my grandson build a car which took 1st place in Pack, District, then Council. Another son pointed me to the P**R forum, and encouraged us to enter my grandsons car there. I fully expected the car to be in the top 5 or so. We were 36th out of 37 cars. Big Wake Up. But I was captured enough to stay in the league for every subsequent race. I believe that was also the first race for QuickTime.
The Amateur class need to be set up to capture the interest of dads like me and QuickTime. Just reading this forum the last two months, it seems to me that there are a dozen or more dads really into PW racing at the scout level. We need to encourage those dads to enter their son/daughter cars into our amateur class.
So no matter whether an amateur racer is son or dad (or even a RINGER), if his time reaches a certain point, immediatly up to the pro class. IMHO
This just popped into my head as I read OP's post above.
I sounds like what is being described here is bracket racing, a term used in drag racing. If a driver/car "breaks out" they are DQ'd, but in our case here, would the car then be automatically bumped to the upper bracket, therefore removing them from the AM class permanently? Question is, what is the "break out" time?
I sounds like what is being described here is bracket racing, a term used in drag racing. If a driver/car "breaks out" they are DQ'd, but in our case here, would the car then be automatically bumped to the upper bracket, therefore removing them from the AM class permanently? Question is, what is the "break out" time?
I am not sure what the answer is. There are very few secrets left and everyone should be racing on top of each other. The only reason they don't is some are trying to come up with their own magic. The fact is that no matter who we move up, there will always be some one saying they are scared to jump in because of whoever is at the top of the Ams. I hate to say it but I just am not going to try and bend everything for the ones that for some reason are scared to race. I promise the earth will not stop turning if you lose a pinewood derby. Some people would rather be the big fish in the little pond. Take BSB for example...
This is an incredibly fun hobby. The most fun of it is starting at the bottom and climbing to the top.
This is an incredibly fun hobby. The most fun of it is starting at the bottom and climbing to the top.
G
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OPARENNEN said:
Again, this is a class I do not participate in but want to add my opinion. Opa hit the nail on the head with his quote above. This hobby will only last as long as we keep getting new people joining. I know we can tell new people to just jump in and take your lumps but most people don't operate too long like that. There has to be something we can do to make a class set up for new racers so they can start to learn but also be competative with other "new" racers. Like John said, I don't know the anser eaither but we do need to keep a class that will allow these new dads a chance to join us. Once they race a "novice" type class they will get the itch to move to other classes and move up. Maybe if you race a "novice" class you should only be allowed inn that class until you move up? Not sure but Opa was dead on. John is doing something right with 65 SS though. Again, only my thoughts and maybe they are worth nothing.
Ian
I don't think it matters if there is a AM class. There wasn't a AM class when most of us joined. It takes a special person to do what we do, and either you are going to have the drive to do it or not. You will get smoked when you first start and it will cause you to do one of two things. 1. Quit because you can't take losing or the competition, 2. take your lumps and try to figure out what it is every one is doing to run were they are running. If a racer chooses to race solely because there is a AM class they will not last. Their is a racer that comes to live event and new to racing, he asked to be put in the pros. This is the type of racer that will last. You don't have to win to have a good time. As a new racer if I came in and got smoked in the AM class I would not return, but if I got smoked in the pro class I would be like I have a lot to learn. There will always be winners and losers.
The fact is that we would be at least 300 cars a month if it wasn't for the constant opposing forces that have worked against each other for the last 5 years. No other league has ever been this large and it is not because of me. It is because we as a group have created a neutral, mostly drama free environment that everyone feels welcome to race at regardless of personal relationships. I am starting to understand the mentality of the ones that avoid racing here. Most of these guys have developed a legend status in their local area and coming to a race like this could destroy how people look at them. I was reading the Mid America thread on another board and seeing the newer members wanting the gurus to send cars to the race to support their board. The gurus had too many irons in the fire to participate. How long does it actually take to build a car if you are that accomplished? The fact is that when they sent their car in and got destroyed then they would no longer be a credible go to guy for the pinewood derby info. You never see ebay builders race. You never see other vendors race. People like the attention they get and don't want to lose the local legend status. You see the true competitors come out in the top level competitions. Spacewalker is a good example. Is he winning here? No. But in reality even though he might finish in 15th place how much slower than the top racer is he? A cat whisker? The point is he is a true competitor because he does not quit for the fear of defeat. Regardless of his finish spot he has proven himself to be a top racer. We are all made up different. Some have to compete. I live for it. I can't do your physics homework though. Some people just aren't as into it as we are. We can make a million classes to support new racers but it doesn't matter unless you reach the right new racers that will stick with the hobby even occasionally. I don't expect to see you guys race every month forever. Life gets in the way but I surely do enjoy the surprise when you come back to race. With everyone spreading the word our events will continue to grow but it is a true statement that if you aren't growing and adding new racers then you are slowly dying.
I agree with John that the most fun is starting at the bottom and climbing. I got into this sport through a work race then my co-workers convinced me to enter a state race that I was lucky enough to win. When I came here I finished dead last with the same car. I am so grateful for that experience. It taught me that there was much to learn and much fun to be had learning it.
I have enjoyed racing in the Amature class and can't beleive I ended up winning the past couple races in that division (I should add that I barely won). When I started within the ameture class it was a lot less overwhelming although I always track my progress with a list similar that Resophonic posted from the February race with the pros and ams together.
I like Opa's ideas. Whatever the decision I am content to continue learning and striving for improvement as I try to earn my way into the pro rankings.
I have enjoyed racing in the Amature class and can't beleive I ended up winning the past couple races in that division (I should add that I barely won). When I started within the ameture class it was a lot less overwhelming although I always track my progress with a list similar that Resophonic posted from the February race with the pros and ams together.
I like Opa's ideas. Whatever the decision I am content to continue learning and striving for improvement as I try to earn my way into the pro rankings.
This is a delicate topic for which I am glad I do not have to share the headache of it. But to me, so far everyone is correct in some way or another. QT is Xactly right saying that it takes a certain kind of person...you are either building and racing PWD cars or your are not. Pretty simple. On the other hand maybe some of the dads out there would build and race more if they thought they had a snowballs chance in (you know where) to win or place in the top 10. Opa is correct in the fact the more people we get interested in racing the longer our hobby will last. I like Gravity X's idea of bracket racing. That would be at random and then some of the people would would actually win a race or two. On the other hand it takes a lot of work on Johns part to do the brackets. Once again DD4H is correct in his earlier post. I still like the "if you are a 3 second racer then you are AM and if you are sub 3 then you are Pro". I think Skippy and I are on the same page of just having fun and racing. It doesnt matter to me what category as long as I get to see my car go down the track (right side up or up-side down) I simply love the camaraderie and the fun of learning and talking about who's going to win this time
As an add-on:
The guys I want to capture into NPWDRL are the BSA dads across the nation who's sons are CURRENTLY winning within BSA. There are hundreds.
As to the more experienced guys from other leagues, even if they change their "moniker", There are not too many that would make the shift, but maybe a few, and I would like to have them. But those I want to bring into the fold are those hundreds that have never raced in serious competition.
A single move-up is not enough. In the March race, every car that posted a 2.95xx should have been moved up immediately.
Since the PRO class is as large as it is, just take the MIDDLE TIME in each race, and any amateur that beats that time goes up.
This is how it would work:
First run the existing Pros.
Determine the move up time.
Second, run the amateurs.
Move up ALL who beat that "move-up" time.
During the time it takes to determine the MOVE-UPS, every amature would be glued to their screens in supence, and the top 3 Pros would be doing the same to see if they were going to be bumped down a notch or two.
The arrangement is simple. And I think this arrangement would be the carrot B4 the donkey. It would be great incentive TO WANT to move up, just like the Sub# badge is.
Yet it would leave a decent class for future amateur races, who upon entering for the first time would not as mortified as I was in my first race.
All last year, from my second race on, I kept trying to determine how I was doing against the other Newbies. It was impossible, so instead I set sub3 as my goal.
If a Pro and Amateur had existed last year, it would have traken me at least 4 more races to become a so-called Pro.
The guys I want to capture into NPWDRL are the BSA dads across the nation who's sons are CURRENTLY winning within BSA. There are hundreds.
As to the more experienced guys from other leagues, even if they change their "moniker", There are not too many that would make the shift, but maybe a few, and I would like to have them. But those I want to bring into the fold are those hundreds that have never raced in serious competition.
A single move-up is not enough. In the March race, every car that posted a 2.95xx should have been moved up immediately.
Since the PRO class is as large as it is, just take the MIDDLE TIME in each race, and any amateur that beats that time goes up.
This is how it would work:
First run the existing Pros.
Determine the move up time.
Second, run the amateurs.
Move up ALL who beat that "move-up" time.
During the time it takes to determine the MOVE-UPS, every amature would be glued to their screens in supence, and the top 3 Pros would be doing the same to see if they were going to be bumped down a notch or two.
The arrangement is simple. And I think this arrangement would be the carrot B4 the donkey. It would be great incentive TO WANT to move up, just like the Sub# badge is.
Yet it would leave a decent class for future amateur races, who upon entering for the first time would not as mortified as I was in my first race.
All last year, from my second race on, I kept trying to determine how I was doing against the other Newbies. It was impossible, so instead I set sub3 as my goal.
If a Pro and Amateur had existed last year, it would have traken me at least 4 more races to become a so-called Pro.
DerbyDad4Hire said:
I would think if you finished in the top five in the am class you should move up. When I started racing 2 years ago I thought I would run right at the top but I got smoked. I entered two cars in the limited class and finished 26th and 27th out of 27 cars but that day made me want to learn and put even more desire to race in my blood. To do this hobby and do it well you have to have a desire to win and race and a very understanding wife.
Agreed!!!
I would race whether there was an amateur class or not. I am using the experience at this level to help improve my building and tuning skills. I don't care if I get beat down each month, I'll be back. It just tells me I need to spend more time perfecting my skills. One day I'll be competing with the big dogs and then one day they will be chasing me, because that's what I do. I don't stop until I'm the one to beat. I came across this many years ago and sums up how I operate.
DerbyDad4Hire said:
I would race whether there was an amateur class or not. I am using the experience at this level to help improve my building and tuning skills. I don't care if I get beat down each month, I'll be back. It just tells me I need to spend more time perfecting my skills. One day I'll be competing with the big dogs and then one day they will be chasing me, because that's what I do. I don't stop until I'm the one to beat. I came across this many years ago and sums up how I operate.
I wondered if you could run the race in Street Stock similar to modified races A-main B-main C-main. All cars run together at the same time. At the end of the race the software does a sort. The top cars running 2.9599 or faster qualify for the A-main. Top cars running 2.9600 to 2.9799 run in the B-main. And top cars running 2.9800 or slower would run in the C-main. Just an idea.
On a side related note....a fun category in the future (or you all may have done this already) might be a "true BSA STOCK" race.....(not a routine category mind you...but one time a year or something or special event....)
John will sell actual BSA kits (straight from the BSA), or we just buy em ourselves (honor system!), and using just your own two hands and whatever tools you have and mad skills...try to create a pure stock car using the slots...it would also be luck of the draw if you get a decent kit or a crappy one but youll just have to make do and compensate when able to....
and give special badges or prizes for sub 3 sec (or what ever time you all think is a great time to shoot for to trigger awards...)
For me, I owe majority of the speed in the last race to great products from John....moreso than my building skills at this point in time...
but to take that box and without changing any components, and using graphite, make a sub 3 sec car...now that would take some definite skills beyond just following instructions carefully.....I bet a number of the accompished racers here can do it though /images/boards/smilies/smile.gif but i bet it would still take a good deal of work and prayer...!
I know some may ask...why kill ourselves and use "bad" stuff...garbage in garbage out....why drive a jalopy when you can ride a porsche...but still id be pretty interesting I think LOL....
John will sell actual BSA kits (straight from the BSA), or we just buy em ourselves (honor system!), and using just your own two hands and whatever tools you have and mad skills...try to create a pure stock car using the slots...it would also be luck of the draw if you get a decent kit or a crappy one but youll just have to make do and compensate when able to....
and give special badges or prizes for sub 3 sec (or what ever time you all think is a great time to shoot for to trigger awards...)
For me, I owe majority of the speed in the last race to great products from John....moreso than my building skills at this point in time...
but to take that box and without changing any components, and using graphite, make a sub 3 sec car...now that would take some definite skills beyond just following instructions carefully.....I bet a number of the accompished racers here can do it though /images/boards/smilies/smile.gif but i bet it would still take a good deal of work and prayer...!
I know some may ask...why kill ourselves and use "bad" stuff...garbage in garbage out....why drive a jalopy when you can ride a porsche...but still id be pretty interesting I think LOL....
Mentoring the New Racers-
It is hard for some to approach people even over the Internet.. When we New racers see you folks very busy with Real Life and Hobby Life we may tend not to try to bother you.. I think that this would allow even though it has been said ASK ANYTHING we are here to help maybe works for some but not for all .. Just a thought we are all adults I know bust my chops but one has to understand people and they are all different...
I like what OPA and the others have to say about their ideas.. I am no where close to help out in races if I was i would be there live. That is where the training is worth GOLD!!!
I am in the process of building a car there are several other items that get in my way .. I for one know that I will not be top racer starting off. I read every post placed on here and search the old ones to learn.
Recently I have been approached by a member who I consider to be a mentor to me personally .. I will leave his name out right now. He has seen me all over on here and in race chat seeing that I do not race but I watch live feed and mingle during the races... He reads my posts right or wrong ... This person has offered help in the past and My standard answer was ... Yes I want to but here is my deal.. He understands my steps I have to take .. Now I owe this person so much for personally reaching out and taking me under his wings... To Mentor me but more important this is a relationship that would not have happen if his Pm never came... I personally think he is very genuine and caring about this Hobby and People as he has helped me understand areas of this League and why things are the way they are and how it works out in a good way...
My fear of losing .. Sorry I am not afraid to get handed my butt!! This is part of the Hobby like any Hobby .. I can build Model Rockets and build them very Well I excel in that I do it often and I had supplies for many years.. One day I will excel in PWD as I gain the experience, tools and supplies....
I can build PWD cars not as good as many here as I am tool less right now but I can use what I have and know others that have tools I can use and I am at the mercy of their schedules... as I make arrangements with them ...
So what I am saying I guess Pros have offered help but the new guys hate to bother others maybe.. me I just want to get the best items and the $$ crunch is not in my budget at this time.
I worked in a Hobby Shop for 4 years .. My understanding of this and not many will agree...
Buy Cheap buy twice ... When you fly airplanes, Helli, race RC cars, slot cars, Boats like I did you have to have the best items on the market to prevent it from breaking not to allow you to win..
Winning - That is called SKILL, Practice, Talent You can't buy this! You Have to Live and learn it!
Mentoring so far has brought me another step forward and trying to be in Aprils race.
I am trying my BUTT off to get Wheels ready with what I have here and the process of what I can do... My goal is to be in the race and progress from there as $$ allows...
Thank You to MY Mentor and NEW FRIEND!!!!
V
It is hard for some to approach people even over the Internet.. When we New racers see you folks very busy with Real Life and Hobby Life we may tend not to try to bother you.. I think that this would allow even though it has been said ASK ANYTHING we are here to help maybe works for some but not for all .. Just a thought we are all adults I know bust my chops but one has to understand people and they are all different...
I like what OPA and the others have to say about their ideas.. I am no where close to help out in races if I was i would be there live. That is where the training is worth GOLD!!!
I am in the process of building a car there are several other items that get in my way .. I for one know that I will not be top racer starting off. I read every post placed on here and search the old ones to learn.
Recently I have been approached by a member who I consider to be a mentor to me personally .. I will leave his name out right now. He has seen me all over on here and in race chat seeing that I do not race but I watch live feed and mingle during the races... He reads my posts right or wrong ... This person has offered help in the past and My standard answer was ... Yes I want to but here is my deal.. He understands my steps I have to take .. Now I owe this person so much for personally reaching out and taking me under his wings... To Mentor me but more important this is a relationship that would not have happen if his Pm never came... I personally think he is very genuine and caring about this Hobby and People as he has helped me understand areas of this League and why things are the way they are and how it works out in a good way...
My fear of losing .. Sorry I am not afraid to get handed my butt!! This is part of the Hobby like any Hobby .. I can build Model Rockets and build them very Well I excel in that I do it often and I had supplies for many years.. One day I will excel in PWD as I gain the experience, tools and supplies....
I can build PWD cars not as good as many here as I am tool less right now but I can use what I have and know others that have tools I can use and I am at the mercy of their schedules... as I make arrangements with them ...
So what I am saying I guess Pros have offered help but the new guys hate to bother others maybe.. me I just want to get the best items and the $$ crunch is not in my budget at this time.
I worked in a Hobby Shop for 4 years .. My understanding of this and not many will agree...
Buy Cheap buy twice ... When you fly airplanes, Helli, race RC cars, slot cars, Boats like I did you have to have the best items on the market to prevent it from breaking not to allow you to win..
Winning - That is called SKILL, Practice, Talent You can't buy this! You Have to Live and learn it!
Mentoring so far has brought me another step forward and trying to be in Aprils race.
I am trying my BUTT off to get Wheels ready with what I have here and the process of what I can do... My goal is to be in the race and progress from there as $$ allows...
Thank You to MY Mentor and NEW FRIEND!!!!
V
I think that if you have 10 cars or less in the AM class, then you could move up just the winning builder for future events. If you have 11-20 cars, you could move up the first and second place builder. If you have 30 or more cars, you could move up the top 3 builders. This would cycle things through by participation numbers. As more new guys begin racing in the AM class so also will guys be moving up each month by the participation level.
I agree that making it to the Pro class should be a goal and prestigious, so something else to consider is a way to demote Pros back to the AM class if they don't progress at the same pace as other Pros because the classes are not getting slower. That may be even harder to determine than moving AM up to Pro level, but it was just an idea.
I agree that making it to the Pro class should be a goal and prestigious, so something else to consider is a way to demote Pros back to the AM class if they don't progress at the same pace as other Pros because the classes are not getting slower. That may be even harder to determine than moving AM up to Pro level, but it was just an idea.
Please do not take my earlier post personally about not racing because you are afraid to lose your status in your community. It is intended for certain people that do not necessarily participate on this board but do troll it. I just don't like seeing people claim to know it all then avoid any chance of getting exposed. I realize league racing is not for the majority but it is also nothing to be worried about trying.
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