What do you think???

[DerbyDad4Hire]

Occasionally I get something like this in the form of an email or something. In this case this gentleman tried to post this to my feedback section on my site and get it published. I would like to hear your opinions on this subject.

"As chairman of our district and co chairman of the council race, I see that a lot people pay huge sums of money to WIN. What a shame. Why don't you just buy a trophy. Buy several, with all of the money you save by doing it your self. This won't happen, because the other competitive dads would win instead of you. What ever happened to the ideal that the founder of the derby had: a "friendly" competition between Scout built cars. What a shame it has come down to how much money one pays for derby stuff determines how you place. My kids never won, but we have fond memories of making the car. My grand children now do the same, because their dad did it on his own. Winning isn't everything. It is how you play, and the fond memories you get from participating. It is because of customers like yours that our derby events have turned into a competition between dads, not Scouts. On the district level, and especially the Council level, me and my inspection crew have to be really carful on what we allow to race. Most, ( if not all) of the Council eligiable cars look as if no 8 year old ever touched it. I bet my comments will never see the web site. Just venting my frustrations."

You wanted it out there so here it is Mr D Labelle!

 

[resullivan]

Well, if he is worried about people buying wins then he should love your site. You know how much money I have spent just to drill four holes in a block which you sell on your site for $15?

 

[DerbyDad4Hire]

LOL, I know how you feel! Remember I was once just like all of you.

 

[resullivan]

Seriously though let me go into more detail of my feelings on commercially bought products. If anything, they level the playing field. What is the difference in CNC machined wheels from DD4H and CNC machined wheels made by a dad that just so happens to be a machinist? Quality time making the wheels? Oh please, no 8 year old is making a CAD drawing. Sure, maybe he gets to watch the wheels be cut if he gets to go to work with dad which I highly doubt. What about single mom that wants her son to be able to participate in PWD, but doesn't have the time, resources, or know how to help? Sites like this help there too. Is it fair? Maybe, maybe not, but just like he said it isn't about winning. It is about making a memorable moment for the scouts to enjoy. This isn't the only forum I participate in. On a different forum I saw someone basically gloat and others applaud that he caught an "ebay car" and disqualified a grandfather and grandson after the race. No suprise, they left the pack. Is that what PWD is about?

Personally, if my son were to get beat by an ebay car that would only motivate us to work harder which means spending more time together. I would be willing to bet that 90% of people that take the time to know to buy parts from places like DD4H spend more time with their kids then the ones that wait last minute and throw a car together the night before. For instance, this past Saturday me and my son spent the majority of the day helping with a PWD workshop at the scout store in which both of us helped other people. There were so many people we didn't have a chance to even think about our car.

 

[Guest]

I am not gonna even get started on this guy.

It is awesome that you post his rant John!

 

[zeebzob]

There are so many facets to this argument, but in all its moot. The reality is, you will never get a race where the cars were only built by the scouts. I would hazard to guess that this guy is right that at the district and counsel level, there are no cars that look to be scout built. But that's what competition breeds. To think that a pinewood derby race would never be infiltrated by over zealous, win at all costs parents is ridiculous. Even the leagues have the same problem...there are a number of people racing that simply just buy the car from a successful builder. I find that very frustrating when a guy who has been racing for a month or two is suddenly one of the contenders. The fact that I'm slow just goes to show how cheap I am...hahahahahahaha.
But back on point, it is unrealistic to think that a Tiger cub scout could do much of anything with the car other than put stickers on it. I know someone will probably pipe up and say how HIS tiger cub did this and that and blah blah blah...whatever, I guess your kid really is as great as you think he is.
I don't know what the answer is, and there may not be one. But one thing is for sure, you cannot win the pinewood derby without being labeled a cheater - and I find that very sad.
In all forms of racing, the old saying is true. Speed costs money, how fast do you want to go. Well funded teams will out perform the lesser funded ones on a consistent basis, it may not be fair but neither is life. In Pinewood derby, the kid whose dad is an engineer or a machinist or a physics teacher will out perform the kid whose dad is janitor or a doctor or whatever. Its not fair but neither is life...maybe that's the lesson they learn.....?

 

[Quicktimederby]

My 2 year old builds all my cars, I just saying!!

 

[~JBD RACING~]

I would vent... But I'm gonna keep my mouth shut & just laugh at this guy for sending a email to John!! Beside all the other site beside DD4-Hire.. We see who he putting on the spot!! Enough said.. LOL .. Beside that these guys that's checking the cars do they really know who parts are on these scout cars NOPE!! Unless you are league racing & testing thing you wouldn't know who's is who.. All I can do is laugh.. Because unless your child is at least +8 In age we all know who builds the cars ... Or buy them either way everyone's doing it!

 

[Guest]

I will wait for the book:

Ethics and the Pinewood Derby
By: Mr. D Labelle

I just hope he does some research on the topic first.

 

[AC Designs]

Now I know why Joel is so fast

 

[oskiwow]

Labelle's dad didn't care enough to work on his car with him.

Speed costs something -- be it time, money, bruised and bloodied fingers, or Dads/sons arguing over who broke what.

I've seen kids come to the race with their Dads and their cars are half-built and the Dad wants me to make their son's car somewhat race-able in 10 minutes -- the look on the kid's face tells you he knows that his Dad didn't give him the time of day for this race. I've also seen kids whose Dad spent oodles to get the car "right" only to have their car beat because the Dad didn't do enough homework, or thought eBay wheels were enough.

When we started PWD building, we (wife, son, me) spent two months prepping cars without any knowledge of DD4H or this site. We bought everything imaginable with little if any success. Alot of the "speed" we were able to get was more from pure luck than anything repeatable (or science-based).

Then I found this site, and learned alot from just reading and asking. DD4H's products shave off time, but not all the time -- I still spend a good amount of time fine-tuning for that last tenth or hundredth. I'm not going to (be allowed to) spend $6k+ on a CNC machine, but I can (sneak off and bury somewhere in the books and) spend $60 on parts to put a car together. And that time spent on tuning gets spent with... my boy, who has learned more physics in 3 years than I did in high school and college.

And as for "friendly competition," everyone to a person here is friendly and helpful. Snark and bark are rare.

(I bought an eBay car made by DD4H a year ago. I used it as a template and a benchmark to learn about steer and fine-tuning, and to learn how to do the oil process right. It took about a year, but I finally figured out what I was doing wrong. I could have spent hundreds if not thousands on trial and error, but thanks to folks here, and a few dollars on parts, we're able to learn a bit about the craft. Of course, I still didn't learn enough about relaxing axle holes....)

 

[Kinser Racing]

I guess he's not concerned at all about the $40 walking stick (shovel handle) at the scout shop. I can get one with the metal shovel on it for $5.99 at Lowes. And, you won't win anything with that. He's just bitter because his kids never won. He also say's we had fun building the cars and then goes on to say that his kids built the cars. Which is it? I also don't see him having a problem with all of the derby w junk that you can purchase at the scout shop. You could literally walk out of there having spent $200 on junk and me and my kid will still beat you.

P.S. Me and my kid(s) work together the whole time except for some color sanding. I spent close to 40 hours with my boys on the first round and then I got better and me and my other son were spending around 20 hours together. Without painting we'll get that down to 10, and he'll now why we're doing what because I teach and then quiz him on it.

 

[DerbyDad4Hire]

Thinking back, the first car we built probably cost me $1000. It won wobbling the whole way down the track. Good thing it was a short track.

 

[sondo007]

Alright I'm going to get socked in the mouth for this one

. I will play the Devil's Advocate on this. I see the guys point to a certain extent. I just did 5 hours this pass Saturday organizing and helping out parents and scouts get their cars ready for our PWD. I showed them how to properly sand the axles using DD4H products and I laid out over 300 different designs for them to choose from and I showed them how to apply graphite with the 91% alcohol trick and even showed them the best place to place the weights that they brought. So what do you think happen, just what I expected and which many of you have already said. The Tiger scouts either don't have the strength or coordination or patience or skills or all the above to do even 1 or 2 of things I explained. So, who had to do it, that's right dad or mom. However the scouts did learn about the different tools being used, they also got to see the process and asked questions about why they were doing the things they were doing. Even when we got the the older Weblos scouts, we made them do more of the work, but we had a few who would wonder off into space. Now did we let them handle the band saw? Heck NO. Would it take hours to use a coping? Yes. Did they watch a person cutting and see the process? YES. Did they sand the car when done? Yes. Did they learn some things about wood working in the process? Maybe?
Did the scouts have fun with their parents, well I saw a lot of smiles and high fives between scout and parents and I got a few emails after the workshop thanking me and how their scout was so excited about painting the car and racing it. Do I think buying an ebay car is fair, NO I don't, not for a scout race anyway, however as many of you alluded too. life isn't fair. If I was in a career were I'm working 80hrs a week or didn't have the tools or wooding work knowledge, ya I understand why they bought a pre-made car. The flip side of that is a pre-made car still doesn't guarantee you a win. You all know as well as I do on the pro-level a pre-bought car doesn't mean a big win every time, it still requires tuning and research. As for this guys rant, he spoke his mind and John being the open minded person he is, he aloud it to be heard on the forum and allowed all of us to weigh in on it. Bottom line is every Council, District, and Pack there are going to be cheaters, criers, winners and losers and that is LIFE IN A NUTSHELL!!!

 

[oskiwow]

The more fun discussion is/was on facebook with John talking about Chinese wheels...

 

[bracketracer]

Some people are willing to take the time to learn how to do it right and some people aren't that interested in the PWD. The people that learn will go fast, and the ones that don't will be in contention for the "Best Gas Mileage" trophy.

 

[rock city racer]

This dude is cracked . I have tried just about every axle and wheel out there over the last 5 Years only to find out you got to know what to do with it . And then there's that other thing --tuning -- probably most important . Two years ago I inspected our District race and seen what I thought were PRO built cars and thought boy are we in trouble . My sons car smoked them and set a track record that still stands using smashed lead sinkers for weight , stock axles prepped by him , and DD4H Pure Stockers . The time we spent together building this car is what gets him fired up again every year . So there is no way to buy a win , you got to earn it .

 

[DerbyDad4Hire]

I can take the kit and use the slots and stock untouched wheels and axles and win almost any scout derby. It's not about buying products, it's about knowledge. With this forum nobody needs to buy a thing to win their derby. My products just make it fair for those that don't have the ability or tools to keep up with Billy that is a machinist... no, not a knock at BSB.

 

[DerbyDad4Hire]

The more fun discussion is/was on facebook with John talking about Chinese wheels...

That was a laugher for sure. I wish he would run my cars and tell me if they are fast enough. You can't help some people.

 

[DerbyDad4Hire]

The more fun discussion is/was on facebook with John talking about Chinese wheels...

That was a laugher for sure. I wish he would run my cars and tell me if they are fast enough. You can't help some people.

OK, I should have left well enough alone but someone has to say what everyone else is thinking.