Wheel preparation...what really works?

[DuckOfAllTrades]

My son and I are building pinewood derby cars for him for his troop and me for an adult race. My question is this:

What really makes a difference preparing a wheel. There is SO much on the web these days, so many suggestions, but what really works and is worth the time put in it.

I am thinking of buying the pro hub tool and wheel shaver. In your experience, will using these make a difference? Specifically I may:

Square the hub
Cone the hub
Truing the wheel edge
Truing the tread surface

Of course I will also polish the bores. Just wanted to know on my limited budget if these tools would help.

Thanks in advance! I’ve learned so much on this board and appreciate everyone’s openness.

 

[Reecedad]

All of those steps will help. I was surprised how much speed I found paying close attention to my hubs

 

[DuckOfAllTrades]

Thanks! I meant to say, and have corrected my post, that I DON'T have these tools and am thinking of buying them. Just wanted to make sure they are worth while.

 

[DuckOfAllTrades]

Let me add to my question. Are there other tools I should buy to help the car? My goal is to not just teach my son how to build the car, but I want him to hopefully see what going the extra mile and putting in hard work can do, that it's worth it. And that he learns as much as he can. He's so smart. I'm definitely not a win at all costs type of dad, just want to make sure he learns and has fun.

 

[TRE]

I would just buy some wheels already machined

 

[Darkside]

They are good entry level tools and will get the job done to a point. The hub tool is probably the most effective. It does an ok job coning the hubs. The shaver is ok too. You won't get your wheels perfectly true with it, but they'll be better than when you started. Just remember to go slow. Tiny movements when turning the knob. It's really easy to cut a chunk out of your wheel with that thing if you're not careful. Make sure you have some extra wheels on hand because it will happen.

There are a lot of tools out there, some good, some not so good. One example is the tool that everyone wants when they start out ( myself included ), the axle bender in one form or another. Save your money on those. They do the job, but no better than putting the axle in the vise and bending it with a small block of wood and a hammer. I think DD4H has a video out there showing how to cut a bending groove in the axle and bending it that way. That's the method I use now while my $80 axle bender sits in the tool box with all the other cool looking tools I no longer use.

In a nutshell, go ahead and get the wheel shaver and hub tool. They're both decent entry level tools. And any time you get the itch to buy another tool or gizmo, ask the folks on this forum. We've all pretty much bought everything out there as we progressively became more obsessed with making a block of wood go faster.

 

[DuckOfAllTrades]

That's awesome advice! Thanks so much! I have tons of wheels on hand, so that's no problem. I've collected them over the years in the kits, because my kids always want color wheels. I went through last week and matched them up with mold numbers and have quite a few sets that match. Not sure if that makes a difference, but hope it does.

Are there other tools that won't break the bank that you could recommend? I don't want to buy anything already done, I want him to have the experience of creating from scratch. My pack has a tech night where the kids can test out there cars. My son is working on two cars at once trying a few different variables to see which goes fastest. Great learning tool.

I did buy some outlaw wheels for my car for the Adult Derby, but they aren't legal in his race. I don't have any experience with these wheels, but hopefully they are OK.

 

[bracketracer]

I would skip the wheel shaver and just carefully hand select the wheels (with even just a homemade runout gauge if possible) if the rules don’t allow lightened wheels purchased from a vendor. If you compare a wheel that was good to start with vs lightly trued on the OD you won’t see a worthwhile speed gain until you cut the inside and remove weight. Which you can’t do with the shaver. If you’re allowed, you get more of a boost from cutting the tread bumps off and truing that DFW edge (in a lathe) than from lightly truing the OD. The main advantage from purchasing lightly trued wheels from a reputable vendor is that the man has the skill to select the best wheels from the pile to send you so you don’t need to sort through the garbage in 20 sets to find the four best.

 

[Darkside]

Right there with you on the learning experience for the kids. I'm way more into pinewood derby than my boy is, but he enjoys it and has learned a lot while building cars. This year he built 3 cars and used a planer, belt sander, drill press, scroll saw, dremel shaper table, and a mini lathe. He's 10 years old and has the skill sets to out build most adults. So keep up the good work with the kids.

As far as other tools goes... At your stage, I would focus on wheel prep, axle prep, and alignment. I'm no where near a pro, but from my experience, wheel prep, axle prep, and alignment are the big three of speed. True your wheels, and cone your hubs. Don't over work your axles, but get a square needle file and remove the burrs between the axle and the head. Get wheel bore and axle polish kits and do both of those. Another entry level tool would be a simple drill jig. Just the simple affordable solid one piece jig will do for a beginner. As you become more advanced, you will want to explore better methods like the block from Jewkes or a more advanced drill jig like the one sold by DD4H. But at an entry level, simple straight drilled axle holes will improve your alignment over using the slots if your rules allow for it.

Bottom line is focus on the details and quality of work. Speed parts and tools are cool, but it's the tedious boring work that makes your cars fast.

 

[DuckOfAllTrades]

My son is ten years old too. It's amazing the difference a year makes! When we built last years car, he was hesitant to be around any power tools, using them gingerly and limited. This year is a whole different story. I was worried about how he would be around power tools, but he immediately took an interest, quizzing me on what everything does and wanting to try everything out! It was great to see. His favorite tool to use is the drill press. He has also been using a belt sander, hand drill, etc. I'm not getting on a soap box, but it's so easy for kids to just live in a digital world. They have Ipads that just work, rarely break, and does everything for them. I grew up with slow computers you had to work on constantly, upgrade and repair, so not only did I use technology, but I understood why technology works.

That's what's great about Pinewood Derby, it's a bonding experience that encourages exploration and to question how something works, not just take for granted that it is easy to use and simply works.

 

[DuckOfAllTrades]

Hi everyone!

Just an update. I did end up picking up a pro hub tool and a pro shaver, but had disastrous results. I used junk tires though, no harm done. I followed the instructions, watched the videos, etc...And I played with the tool for over an hour, experimenting and seeing if I could get it work. I'm 100% confident I was using it correctly. Here's what kept happening:

I would tighten it to just touching...then a little more. I'm talking TINY increments. Was being very careful. But no shavings, no black plastic like the videos. So I tightened a tiny bit more, nothing. A little more, nothing...except all of a sudden it would take a chunk out so big I couldn't turn it. Left gouges. No matter what I tried, that's what happened. It wouldn't shave until all of a sudden it would dig into the wheel and damage it.

I'm REALLY thinking, and hoping, that it's just a dull blade, or defective blade. I can't imagine it would be anything else. But if anyone has any ideas I can try, or things I may be doing wrong, I'd appreciate it.

 

[DuckOfAllTrades]

And just to be clear, I did turn it the right way. But to be sure, I tried it in reverse. Nothing.

 

[TRE]

Hi everyone!

Just an update. I did end up picking up a pro hub tool and a pro shaver, but had disastrous results. I used junk tires though, no harm done. I followed the instructions, watched the videos, etc...And I played with the tool for over an hour, experimenting and seeing if I could get it work. I'm 100% confident I was using it correctly. Here's what kept happening:

I would tighten it to just touching...then a little more. I'm talking TINY increments. Was being very careful. But no shavings, no black plastic like the videos. So I tightened a tiny bit more, nothing. A little more, nothing...except all of a sudden it would take a chunk out so big I couldn't turn it. Left gouges. No matter what I tried, that's what happened. It wouldn't shave until all of a sudden it would dig into the wheel and damage it.

I'm REALLY thinking, and hoping, that it's just a dull blade, or defective blade. I can't imagine it would be anything else. But if anyone has any ideas I can try, or things I may be doing wrong, I'd appreciate it.

Thats why i said just buy lathed wheels for 15 to 25 bucks..now you are out the price of those junk tools you time and the wheels you wasted

 

[Darkside]

I used mine with some kids on a scout build night a couple weeks ago, and it worked like always. The adjustments that you make when tightening it against the wheel are extremely slight. Like you can barely tell you turned the knob slight. Like I said earlier, it's super easy to take a chunk out of a wheel with that thing. I cant remember which way the instructions said to turn the wheel, but I found it most effective to turn it against the flat side of the blade.

Also try it on a new wheel. I've found wheels the were .001" out of round when new and I've found others that were .010" out of round when new. It may have been the wheel you were working on was way out of round. I suppose it could also be the quality of the tool. Ive had mine for years. Perhaps the quality was better when I got mine.

I hope that helps.

 

[Dldoug]

The wheel shaver is tough to use, but I have learned to use it pretty well(for what it is). I have found if I sharpen the blade every two wheels or less, it will do and ok job. It does take time to get it down though. Ruined many wheels, so expect that. Mini Lathe is the way to go, if it’s in your budget.

 

[DuckOfAllTrades]

Thats why i said just buy lathed wheels for 15 to 25 bucks..now you are out the price of those junk tools you time and the wheels you wasted

I didn’t want to by pre done wheels for two reasons.

1. They aren’t legal in my sons divison.
2. I wanted him to learn something, to crate on his own, not just learn that if you want fast wheels, you order them online.

 

[Racing358t]

I totally agree with your reasons for not wanting to buy pre done wheels and I'm glad to see someone else feel that way especially reason #2.

The wheels don't have to be mold matched. Build or buy a runout gauge. Choose the wheels with the least runout that also spin without a tick or hop.

I modified our DW hub tool so it could cut a cone on the outside hub also (take away the outer step and leave a coned shape like on the purchashed wheels). Easy for my son to do. I chuck up on the wheel inner hub with a drill. Then my son holds the tool against the outer hub while running the drill.

Never used a wheel shaver so can't help with that.

I think a must have tool so as to get the best performance out of the car is a bushing style drill jig. That is if you are allowed to drill your own holes.

Scott

 

[B_Regal Racing]

I have had both of those tools and really gave them a fair shot. I also had the axle bender you whack with a hammer. I can absolutely say with certainty that you can be faster leaving the wheels alone. Just pick through a pile of them and look for the wheels with the least runout. Polish the bores and hubs and race them; but do not take my word for it. Check for yourselves. I did not believe it either and had to prove it.

If you want better wheels, buy them as suggested. I have heard the debate on build the car completely for the experience with your children, but, there are so many other things in which can be done together without spending countless hours trying to enhance a wheel's speed through the use of inferior tools. Aside from the woodworking aspects, sanding, painting, lubricating, tuning, etc., spend time doing some simple science experiments. For example, I typical do these three things:

1. Use a leaf blower to show wind resistance by having the child position his/her hand in different orientations. Let them determine what the body shape should be (thin to win).
2. After jacking up a car, spin a car tire vs spinning a bike tire. Ask which one is harder to turn and why?
3. Have the child jump off a chair. Then suggest they jump off the roof (most kids will not want to do that but some may be more adventurous). Ask them why they will get hurt jumping off of the roof vs the chair. Relate that to weight in the front of the car vs weight in the back.
4. Use ice and sandpaper to discuss the importance of a smooth surface and friction

As far as legality in a race, if they allow you, the parent, to lighten and/or modify the wheels, then you are allowed to buy them. Right now, I could modify a wheel using a lathe (albeit, it would be a horrible job). I could also find someone I know to do it. BUT, some may also need help cutting out the body of the car, or with polishing axles. Why not seek help to true up wheels? Or, why not just buy them outright? Many buy weight (tungsten), something I could never make at home. Why not buy wheels if we are buying other parts? I see very little difference between modifying a wheel using the wheel shaver, modifying a wheel using a lathe, and buying them outright.

There are so many other ways to spend that time with your children than shaving wheels and the money you save on the shaver and hub tool can be used for trued wheels (not the $50 ultra light wheels, but just some simple trued wheels) or just polish and race them out of the box. It really is a better use of your time and money.

Best of luck in which ever way you choose - its just my 3 cents (which is 1 more than 2, another bargain ).

 

[Racing358t]

B_regal and TRE. I understand and respect your points of view. I also agree with just finding some good wheels via buying multiple sets and sorting through them as this is also a small expense for big gains.

B_regal I like your analogies to help teach the kids. It is difficult to find the words to help them understand sometimes.

You guys know I started out as scout dad just looking to help my son get faster (Ed, you were one of a couple who helped me early on) and I now participate with you guys in the leagues. To me the mindset is different between the two. For leagues the "just buy it" is the only way to get semi competetive while learning the skills yourself. Some folks choose to always be buyers.

But regarding scouts where does a person draw the line. What stops someone who isn't good at prepping the axles to just buy some prepped bsa axles from a vendor or even some SS racing axles that are pre-prepped. Or how bout someone who isn't good at working with the wood... they could just buy a body. Or someone who doesn't have the skills or tools to drill and verify the drill.... they could just buy a body pre drilled. Or maybe they don't have the skills to do any of it or worse yet don't put any effort into it and they just buy a pre-made complete ready to race car. That's the point/click/buy thing that Im not fond of for scouts. So when regarding scouts, I think parents and pack rules that encourage the work to be done themselves is a good thing both in the learning and bonding department. Those parents and scouts who put the effort into doing the research on how to be faster and do all the work themselves to be faster will end up being the fastest anyway whether they build it themselves or buy it. But, at least the more they done themselves the more the child learned and the more time spent bonding.

Regarding the tungsten I guess we have to buy that... no other option for tungsten. But its the same for the lead weights... some buy the rods and drill the body for them. Some smelt the lead into whatever shape they want.

Scott

 

[M Tull]

B_Regal_Racing,

Thank you for the simple science experiments 1 ~ 4. I've been trying and trying to come up with some simple analogies regarding what makes a car fast at a level scouts understand!