Which set would you go with?

[chennemann]

My son won his pack by a very large margin and now is going on to regional which the rules are much tougher. Basically they say light sanding is all you can do. But I know from last year that most do much, much more… They only give a quick look if that. Mostly look to see if all wheels touch the ground.

If they do a quick look would they notice the dynasty wheels? What about the 92TX?

My assumption is the following on slowest to fastest:

• BASX – 92X Should pass a magnet text and go through without an issue
• BASX – 92XT Not sure of this and the next one on which is more obvious or faster?
• Dynasty Rage – 92X Not sure of this or the previous one on which is more obvious or faster?
• Dynasty Rage – 92XT I would assume this would be obvious, but maybe not. Would the 92XT sit down into the hub to look OK?

My guess is there will be people that will go with light wheels and aftermarket axles. I just want him to be competitive; I know he will not win.

 

[W8NONU]

Would they notice it? Who knows? It really depends on who's doing the inspections. For me, its easier to spot modified wheels than modified axles. Could you post the rules?

 

[chennemann]

Here are the rules. I have issues with the rules because they didn't enforce them at all. I would guess 90%+ of the cars in regional's broke the rules. Honestly it is probably 100% break these rules. I have tried to ask them questions and I get zero response.

Axles and Wheels[list type=decimal][*]The stock wheel base length of 4 13/32" must be maintained to within 1/32" tolerance.[/list type=decimal][list type=decimal][*]The two pre-cut slots provided on the block of wood in the kit are the required location for placing the official BSA nail axles into the car. YOU MAY NOT change axle location (cannot move forward, backwards, raise or lower).[*]Wheel bearings, washers and bushings are prohibited. Body skins applied between the wheel and the body is considered as a bushing / washer.[*]The use of spring, shocks, or starting devices is strictly prohibited.[*]The Derby Car MUST be freewheeling.[*]Do not cover axle or axles.[*]Axles may not be altered in any way (except the light sanding to remove the burs).[*]The axles must be the steel axles supplied with the wheels (they will be checked with a magnet).[*]Axles MUST be aligned with each other (front right axle even with the front left axle and back right axle even with the back left axle).[*]The wheels must be those from the BSA Grand Prix Pinewood Derby Kit or the BSA approved (will have a BSA logo on them) Black or Colored wheels. NO SUBSTITUTIONS ARE PERMITTED![*]Competition wheels sold by hobby shops and modified wheels that have been altered are not allowed.[*]Wheels CANNOT BE MODIFIED other than removing the seam from the tread area as instructed in the kit.[*]Hubcaps (such as stickers on the outside of the wheel), paint or any other markings on wheels is not allowed.[*]CARS MUST HAVE 4 WHEELS ONLY AND SIT EQUALLY ON A FLAT SURFACE![/list type=decimal]

 

[Cubscout Dad]

Why cheat?
Get 4 straight axles (they make a axle straightener) remove burs, sand and polish. Prep wheel bores and wax. Use the tricks mentioned on other forums about slight cant on rears and the 4th wheel just touching and add a little steer. (Lightly sanding) opens up the a can of worms so use a big can /images/boards/smilies/smile.gif True the outer surface of the wheel like they allow and kick some Butt.........

 

[chennemann]

What your suggesting is still cheating.

[list type=decimal][*]Wheels CANNOT BE MODIFIED other than removing the seam from the tread area as instructed in the kit.[*]CARS MUST HAVE 4 WHEELS ONLY AND SIT EQUALLY ON A FLAT SURFACE![*]Axles MUST be aligned with each other (front right axle even with the front left axle and back right axle even with the back left axle).[/list type=decimal]Polishing would be cheating
Canting would be cheating because you are intentionally making it sit unequal.
Adding steer would be cheating because you would intentionally making them unaligned.
Truing the outer surface could be viewed as cheating because that isn't really lightly sanding.

I do not like the rules and most importantly the enforcement of the rules. I would be completely OK with using the stock wheels and axles if that is what 20% of the scouts there use, but that won't be the case. 90% will be using after market parts, lighter wheels from derby dad for example.

The last 3 years we won by a large margin in the pack were most of the people use similar items and we have basic rules. At regional we are in the bottom quarter. I don't mind losing and in fact think it is great for him to lose. But I don't even know some of the pro's here could win following the rules to a T when they probably use oil, aftermarket axles, wheels, plus do all of other tips hear (which we do BTW).

 

[Vitamin K]

Under those rules, you cannot use aftermarket wheels or axles. I would count an online vendor as a "Hobby Shop" for these purposes.

You also need to use the stock axles.

I would buy several tubes (for the cost of 1 set of BASX wheels, you can get 5 tubes of wheels) and pick through them for the best ones (both bore diameter and tread true-ness).

Since you can't alter axles, I presume that means no bending of them. Thus, you'll need to do one of two things:

- Choose axles that already have some bend to them (yay, BSA) and use these to build a bent-axle railrider.

- Choose axles that are reasonably straight and insert them into your car with a very small degree of cant, such that the tread lays flat when the car is sitting, but the wheels still migrate in the proper direction. Of course, since you have to use slots, this might be tricky, unless you can fill-and-drill, or drill at the top of the slots.

- Another issue with straight axles would be setting the drift for the DFW. I'd refer to Txchemist's work on this.

The above is what you'd need to go through in order to keep the letter of the rules, IMO. I'm not a fan of assuming that other racers are going to break the rules. I would rather either keep the rules and race, or reject the rules and not race.

 

[B_Regal Racing]

These would be the wheels allowed within your rules:

http://www.derbydad4hire.com/The-Dynasty-BASX-set-of-4-wheels-W-BASX.htm

They are not weight reduced and there is an option to leave the double step intact. They are only trued.

 

[Vitamin K]

These would be the wheels allowed within your rules:

http://www.derbydad4hire.com/The-Dynasty-BASX-set-of-4-wheels-W-BASX.htm

They are not weight reduced and there is an option to leave the double step intact. They are only trued.

I would argue that those violate rule #11.

Not saying I support such a rule. Just that I would not consider professionally trued wheels to follow the writ.

 

[Crash Enburn]

Polishing [the axles] would be cheating

Very, very strange rule. But, you can use wheels that weren't in the box, and "The axles must be the steel axles supplied with the wheels." So, buy a tube of the Revell (BSA Licensed) wheels, and use the axles that come with those. No burrs.

Canting would be cheating because you are intentionally making it sit unequal.

No. There is enough slop in the wheel bore that at 1° of cant in the axles, the wheels will all be sitting flat

Adding steer would be cheating because you would intentionally making them unaligned.

No. Drill your front axles at a slight turn angle. They are still aligned with each other. Drill the rears straight. "Axles MUST be aligned with each other (front right axle even with the front left axle and back right axle even with the back left axle)."

Truing the outer surface could be viewed as cheating because that isn't really lightly sanding.

Go with the best wheels you find (mold #s 2,3,6,& 15 — YMMV). Give them a light sanding with a fine grit to polish and true the tread.

Volunteer to work the check in. And then call out all the cheaters, bringing in the chairman, and make him have to deal with the repercussions of those rules. And then get them changed for next year.

 

[derbychip]

the rules are junk,no way to enforce! If someone does enforce rules strictly 100%, there would be very few cars make it past tech. Get some decent wheels from a friend (John), and rule # 11 is intact and they can't prove otherwise. Rules like these are just in place because some looser complained because there car that was built on less than 20 min lost

 

[Vitamin K]

the rules are junk,no way to enforce! If someone does enforce rules strictly 100%, there would be very few cars make it past tech. Get some decent wheels from a friend (John), and rule # 11 is intact and they can't prove otherwise. Rules like these are just in place because some looser complained because there car that was built on less than 20 min lost

I agree the rules are junk. But my philosophy is that you either race with the rules, or you walk away. Find better races to participate in with your kids. Send in to MAs or even some of the leagues if you want some building/racing time and don't think you can abide by the ruleset.

Remember: If you race and win, the vultures can use the stupid rules to disqualify you and take your accomplishments away.

 

[derbychip]

Exactly, the only reason many of these rules are in place is to dq someone who wins if they want.

I say since it sounds like rules are not enforced build a car using every gray area, win the thing and laugh when they can't dq because it's technically legal

 

[Kinser Racing]

The only reason these types of rules are created is because people are to lazy to learn how to build a car and to restrict the people who aren't from embarrassing them.

 

[chennemann]

I have volunteered and even said I would help with rules. I get zero response and also when I ask questions I get zero response.

Heck the only reason i know the rules is because I asked for a copy 5 times. If I went with these wheels and axles he would be in the top 50% but would still not win. There were many cars with Gee and Derby Evolution fenders last year. He wants to go and many members of the pack want him to go.

I think it is a good learning experience to lose, I just don't like the fact if we follow the rules he will finish in the bottom 1/3 even though he is doing everything we know how from these boards, watching videos etc... It just seems odd that in the pack were we go with trued wheels and revel axles he wins by several car lengths. To go to regionals and lose by several car lengths to most cars.

Here is some of what we did last year and did very poorly:

• Rail Rider – We used TxChems ideal of cutting the car in half. I did can’t the back wheels by 1.5 degrees. Front wheels were drilled even. All using the block.
• Tungsten weight in the pockets with one wheel barely touching in the front. They told me it barely qualified because of this. It ran great on the track.
• Polished the axles as suggested on here with Derby Dad’s kit. Even went up to Brasso level of shine on the axles. I used BASX wheels that were just trued.
• Followed Derby Dad’s video for the wheels. Used Pledge and Derby Dad’s graphite. I used Revell axles.
• Ghee fenders
• Used nail polish and sand/polish the area the area the wheel touched the body. Gap is 1/32 for the wheels to the body.
• Body was shaped just like the body’s Derby Dad uses.

Now I am not here to complain. I am just saying I am going to have him follow the rules that are enforced. If they enforce wheels/axles I will tell him to put in the revel/BASX wheels. But if they are not checking like it has been for the last few years then I will let him keep the slightly faster wheels on. FYI last year there were several cars you could see the wheels were obviously lightened at a distance. Maybe I am being a terrible parent wanting him to be competitive. He won't know that we used different wheels so it is all on me.

 

[CTDerbyDad]

I'm glad to see people supporting following the rules. The rules you posted are similar to the rules in our area. I know we have a couple dads who buy modified axles and wheels, and we see it even more at the district level. It's frustrating--oh, is it frustrating--but I refuse to cheat and I'm glad others feel the same way. After I hit the nails with a file, my son goes through numerous strips of sandpaper and finally Brasso polish. He spends a ton of time on them and even then they aren't 100% perfect--compared to what I could just buy. I know I could spend $70 to $80 on axles and wheels, be faster and even most likely not get caught. But, I rather follow the rules and build the car with my son. Anyway, very glad to hear following the rules being supported. Not trying to be all holier than thou; believe me, I fully understand your frustration. Just my two cents.

 

[chennemann]

Derbychip - I am trying to go into the grey to be competitive. I don't think it will be possible to win, but you never know.

They only check at checkin and then they are done. They are most concern that you have 4 wheels on the ground and don't can't the wheels to much. Of course that is just their opinion. The real bad thing is you have to register and pay to even race.

 

[W8NONU]

Heck the only reason i know the rules is because I asked for a copy 5 times.

If I had to ask this many times, I would have stopped asking after the 3rd try. If you had this much difficulty trying to get a copy, it's apparent most haven't seen them either. The best you can do is win with integrity. This is the best lesson you can teach your son.