All I can say is over 400 posts and not one car entered into this league.
Generally, people race in the league before trying to change any of the rules. At least Butterhole was more entertaining.
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Vitamin K
Guest
BulldogRacing said:
It seems to be a common belief that I argue for the sake of arguing. I don't. I started the thread with an intending purpose and a point to put forth. I'd honestly like to see that point engaged and tested in a civil manner. As an aside, you have written many words about me, and very few about the points that I put forth.
BulldogRacing said:
The difference between myself and a politician is that a politician is working to advance themselves, while my primary goal is to advance ideas that I see as worthy to the hobby. If you have to think of me in these terms, I'd rather be a statesman than a politician. /images/boards/smilies/wink.gif
BulldogRacing said:
Okay, let me try to unpack some of this.
I am not anti-tools, nor am I anti-investment. I am opposed, in some cases, to rules that, in my view, are antithetical to the purposes for which they are intended. In this case, I am making the assumption that the purpose of wheel restrictions in a Scouting-level race is to help level the playing field in terms of what sort of modifications can reasonably be done. I am highlighting an area in which I see room for improvement and I am offering a corrective.
Now, there are a few responses to this.
- Ignore it, because you like the rules how they are, and you don't care about what I think. (Perfectly valid)
- Decide that you disagree with my point, and offer a counterpoint. (Also, perfectly valid)
- Decide that I am a troll for bringing it up at all and question my motivations, attitude, mental well-being, chakras, E-meter-readings or whatever. (Not so valid)
Now, in the second case, once you present a counterpoint to my arguments, then I can examine your counterpoints and either agree with them, or point out any logical flaws that I happen to see. This is how debate works. This is how ideas are tested, refined and developed. This is how civilization advances.
Nobody is forced to participate in, or to continue a debate. If you have a reasonable response that actually engages with the points that I've made, I want to read it. Not because I thrive on the debate, but because I want to see the idea carried to its full conclusion.
You've made a lot of assumptions about me in your post, but you've said absolutely nothing about the actual topic for which I made the thread.
Come VK, you say your not a troll looking to start an issue, then why are you on a league sight discussing a rule change, instead of talking directly to Greg about his race. You said I you last post " in my view" well we get what your view is, your view is yours. Now move on. Seriously John can we please do something about him, I'm tired of coming on here and see his BS, this is really starting to be just plain unproductive to this site.
Last time i checked this was pro league site not a scout league site....nobody here cares about your BS, so beat it...like we used to tell the neighborhood kid that was a pain in the azz ..go home your mom is calling you
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Vitamin K
Guest
561 racing said:
See my previous post, in which I explain the point/counterpoint structure of a civil debate.
Some ideas I seek to air on public forums, in order that I may collect honest engagement from a diverse group.
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Vitamin K
Guest
TRE said:
There are plenty of discussions about Scout races. There was a whole thread on the races that occurred this past week in New York.
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Vitamin K
Guest
Rocket car said:All I can say is over 400 posts and not one car entered into this league.Generally, people race in the league before trying to change any of the rules. At least Butterhole was more entertaining.
This comes up enough that I'm going to start referring to it as the You Don't Even Race argument. So, congratulations on being the first to use the YDER in this thread.
Irrelevant to the topic of course.
Doubly irrelevant, since the topic was regarding a Scout race, in which I have participated in, and which (in the very first post) indicated my future intent to continue doing so.
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BulldogRacing said:
I'm pretty well known for cutting right to the chase and I laughed the whole time reading this. To sum it up: Tightwad Narcissist. /images/boards/smilies/biggrin.gif
Don't let these guys get you to leave VK, you're entertaining!
Quoted from a famous drag racer on this site... "You've gotta pay to play". I'd consider this to be the highest level of PWD racing. When I decided to get off the porch and play with these big dogs I examined the rules (and associated costs) and figured that I could get a dog into the fight. This hobby is not cheap - I gather that you're looking for ways to trim the costs and keep everyone on a level board but what you're proposing seems to be more of a "Unlimited Dad's Race" setup. Go build one like you're proposing and then see what it'll do at a Dad's Unlimited Race.
I don't try and change the rules here because it's not my site and I consider it a challenge to stay within the rules and see if I can open a can of whoop like the top dogs.
You keep bouncing this idea of change looking for it to gain traction with other members so I'll give you my vote regarding your proposal...
[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQ_5E-IDAms[/video]
I don't try and change the rules here because it's not my site and I consider it a challenge to stay within the rules and see if I can open a can of whoop like the top dogs.
You keep bouncing this idea of change looking for it to gain traction with other members so I'll give you my vote regarding your proposal...
[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQ_5E-IDAms[/video]
Vitamin K said:
1) If lettered razors are allowed NO ONE would be competitive running wide wheels of any weight against them, thus rendering the wide wheels obsolete.
2) Everyone who invested in the special MA cut wide wheels would have to scrap them and buy another set of wheels to be competitive so their competitive edge would vaporize.
Some families would balk at the expense of buying another set of special wheels that pretty much can't be raced anywhere else and just wouldn't enter.
They would have to run in their own, separate, class to maintain the level playing field that you so worship. Which means you need to plead your case directly to MA's ruling body for review.
V.K you beat me man. You are the best debater I've ever gotten my butt handed to me by. Your intellect is second to none. Thank you for teaching me how to debate. I think you are too full of your own intelligence to see that I don't think the whole thread was meant to be about MA rules. You just want to win more right fights. I think we should give you trophy badges under your name for winner of the MA wheel debate. Also 2015 bent axle debate, or DW cool tool debate. In fact I thought your post about the fact it's easier to cut a wheel if you remove the bumps show your true knowledge of this process. You need only one different shaped bit man. But don't worry, you won the debate against me. You are the man! Congrats on the debate team V.K "W"
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Vitamin K
Guest
bracketracer said:
Ah, actual engagement! Thank you, sir.
1) So, it could be that I'm going off of incorrect data, but judging by vendor claims, a Lettered Nitro wheel is of comparable speed to an /unlettered/ razor wheel. If this is true, then nobody needs to worry about their competitive edge, because they're already running the fastest wheels that they can buy.
2) Assuming my first claim is correct, the second problem evaporates. Nobody need buy new wheels.
As an aside, it does seem like every so often, "new" MA cuts come out that claim to be even faster than last years', so the arms race always gets ratcheted up, regardless of what wheels you've bought. So, it could just be that the "next step" would be professionally lathed, lettered razor wheels, for those that want that incremental edge. Those that stick with last years' Nitros may be a tiny disadvantage, but the gap would be nowhere close to what somebody experiences running "heavy" wheels compared to a typical MA cut for wheels.
Now, if point number one is based on flawed data -- that is, if razor wheels are better in every way than eggshell lightened flat wheels -- then that probably does make my entire rules proposal a flawed one. I'd be happy to receive more data on that topic.
Everyone on this board already knows that razor wheels are better in every way than eggshell lathed fat wheels. All you have to do is look at the race data to figure that out.
But perhaps the best thing you can do to prove your theory is to enter a car in the eliminator class with a set of BSA cut razor wheels and see what happens. I have a set of these lathed BSA razor wheels. I will gladly send them to you so you can build an enter a car to prove your theory.
But perhaps the best thing you can do to prove your theory is to enter a car in the eliminator class with a set of BSA cut razor wheels and see what happens. I have a set of these lathed BSA razor wheels. I will gladly send them to you so you can build an enter a car to prove your theory.
Maybe we can make a special PWD debate section just for VK and anybody who wants to join in the fun. That way it won't contaminate the good stuff.
But, I'll join in the debate in the meantime.
1. 90% of us are committed enough to spend the money on whatever it takes to win. For MA, probably a half dozen Derby Talkers will run homemade razor wheels.
2. Wheels are hard to make and a lot of the weight is removed from the hub. The homemade razors will still be over weight and will probably be all messed up in the hub area as well.
3. The scouts who send in their stock wheeled cub cars are going to be discouraged because their cars don't look like everybody else's.
Honestly the only reason I can see for razor wheels is so some guy on derby talk can make his own wheels.
Maybe we need another pinks race. DD4H razors versus VK homemade razors.
But, I'll join in the debate in the meantime.
1. 90% of us are committed enough to spend the money on whatever it takes to win. For MA, probably a half dozen Derby Talkers will run homemade razor wheels.
2. Wheels are hard to make and a lot of the weight is removed from the hub. The homemade razors will still be over weight and will probably be all messed up in the hub area as well.
3. The scouts who send in their stock wheeled cub cars are going to be discouraged because their cars don't look like everybody else's.
Honestly the only reason I can see for razor wheels is so some guy on derby talk can make his own wheels.
Maybe we need another pinks race. DD4H razors versus VK homemade razors.
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Vitamin K
Guest
Mister B Racing said:
I don't know of any races that actively use BSA razors. Does the NPWDRL Eliminator class run them? I thought they tended to prefer custom acrylic wheels.
The only data I'm going off of is that posted on the vendor site:
vs
Though, I guess if we're going by car lengths over seconds, there must be some math error someplace.
Not sure what you sending me wheels would prove, given that they'd have to be run against Nitros (or similar) to have anything to do with what's been discussed thus far. Even then, there would be a lot of other variables to account for.
Any other sources of conclusive data that you might suggest I refer to?
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Vitamin K
Guest
KTMracer said:
Well, given that this is a thread that I started, I don't know what else there was for it to 'contaminate'. As I said before, nobody has to click the link to read the words I write. Nobody has to reply to them.
KTMracer said:
I never claimed that homemade razors were as good as professionally made ones. Quite the contrary, actually.
Rather, my claim was/is that the gap between homemade and professional razors (or professional eggshells) is smaller than the gap between what can be done unprofessionally with fat wheels and the professionally lathed eggshells that currently run.
Vitamin K said:
You're quoting data that includes "average" times and "about" car lengths. Pretty rickety math there VK so I can see why you're having trouble making it fit. But as you quoted, the razors are "about" .3 car lengths faster thus proving my point that all wide wheels would be rendered obsolete. No one will want to give up about a third of a car length.
If your point is that the speed gap between homemade lettered razors vs professional lettered razors is smaller than homemade ultralight wide wheels vs professional ultralight wide wheels then you are fooling only yourself. Little Johnny and his dad working in their basement will never be able to contour out a wheel to the same extent a professional can do on a lathe whether it's a wide wheel or a razor. Switching to razors doesn't solve anything so it's a moot point but if you must continue this argument then plead your case to the ruling body directly please so we can get back to talking about league racing.
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