dial indicator

[5KidsRacing]

With use the dies change and so do the wheels.... MV did his test when the wheels first came out. I never use #8's because the wheel bores are huge, I have cut a lot of 16's lately....

 

[Guest]

Kinser, you guys must be related /images/boards/smilies/smile.gif. I like doing to much of the work myself. Whats that saying, give a man a fish he eats for a day, or teach a man to fish he eats for a lifetime. Plus i'm kinda cheap.lol

Hey Whitaker,

I can see why you would think that we are just pushing John's products here but it is not the case. I think that in the end unless you want to buy a bunch of tools that you will rarely use for anything else, and spend many hours learning a new trade then you probably don't even want to dip your toe in the water. I have been at this about a year now and I am still trying to get my ducks in a row.

The nature of your question suggested that we might be able to dissuade you from going down that path.

If you are serious then I applaud your efforts and advise you to hold tight. Tons of info to digest but you can find a good deal of it right here asking questions like the one that started this thread.

 

[Guest]

Scott,
I think Kinser is just trying to save someone time, frustration and money. I dove headfirst into trying to lathe wheels and had no idea how complicated it was. My best work is not even half as good as Johns. The more I'm learning the more I realize why some guys are hush hush on turning wheels. Had I not tried to turn my own wheels and build my own fenders I'd probably have cars in Utah right now but instead I had to buy HSS bits, figure out how to sharpen them, cut and polish mandrel to size only to find out my chuck has runout, investigate collets, 4 jaw chucks and other options to eradicate the runout, figure out what shaped bit and cut angle to use on each cut, what speed, how to keep temperature down, can a spray lube help cutting and which one. And then when all that was said and done only to figure out my $15 harbor freight digital indicator is inaccurate by 2 thousandth and that I should have been using my Starrett micrometer the whole time. In reality Johns wheels are a bargain when all is taken into consideration and what small profit he does make is most likely put back into PWD research and development to bring us the latest and greatest innovations.

You have a 4 jaw chuck to eliminate runout? Aww man! now I gotta get one of those too?!

 

[whitaker717]

Thanks guys for all the input. Being the new guy its strange asking alot of guys for help. I love doing the work myself though. Not that I wont buy peoples products. I just bought the silver bullet so thats a start. I just dont want to be one of those guys who buys everything. I want to be the one taking the credit as cheesy as it sounds. I dont mind buying the right tools. Who knows in about 4 years maybe i can re-sell it all on here.

 

[Guest]

Laserman, the 4 jaw chuck was an idea I had when I was looking for ways to reduce runout in stock 3 jaw lathe chuck. It was suggested that the 4 jaw is not as easy as that and to look into a collet setup. I guess the collets are more accurate but are not perfect. I've heard of some guys filing one of the jaws to reduce runout and it sounds like a wild goose chase and a royal nightmare of a bearcat! The gauge pin I use in the 3 jaw chuck lacks repeatability when clamping down. If patient enough, attaching an indicator to test the runout of the pin keep rechucking until it is at the lowest value. For mine it's around 0.002" The collets will slightly reduce this but still not perfect. Lathing a new mandrel each time for that run of wheels may yield near perfection if done right. I'm liking another suggestion I read of testing new wheels for the lowest runout and sticking with those. I figure for inner mass removal, the runout wont hurt as much as the wheel can be balanced down to 2.0 grams or the required weight.

 

[rkirkwo1]

Below is a link to the latest MV wheel assesment completed in June 2013

http://www.maximum-velocity.com/wheelaxleqav2.htm#bsamold

Although the source is questionable, there may be some interest in some inner bore data collected by that treadmill guy

, there is a link to an excell spreadsheet in the middle of the page with the full data set.

http://www.derbydust.com/pinewood-derby-wheel-bore-dimensions.html

 

[Guest]

Below is a link to the latest MV wheel assesment completed in June 2013

http://www.maximum-velocity.com/wheelaxleqav2.htm#bsamold

Although the source is questionable, there may be some interest in some inner bore data collected by that treadmill guy

, there is a link to an excell spreadsheet in the middle of the page with the full data set.

http://www.derbydust.com/pinewood-derby-wheel-bore-dimensions.html

Wow that is a lot of data! /images/boards/smilies/comp.gif Thanks for sharing!

 

[bracketracer]

Hey guys, I am looking to buy a dial indicator to measure wheel runnout. Can someone point me in the right direction. I would like the one that the wheels go right on. I don't have the tools or know how to make my own thanks guys

OK, so I am old and loosing my memory.
With that excuse, please explain to me what "runout" is, and how do you use a dial indicator in its determination?

OPA, I'm not sure if you're being serious or not!

I use a dial indicator to check how concentric the tread is to the bore of the wheel. You can use one of the gauges like Owens Racing posted a while back or you can just check the wheel on the mandrel in the lathe (after rotating it 180 degrees on the mandrel first!). The gauge like Owens posted shows the runout directly, if you do it on the lathe then you need to divide the indicated runout in half. The tool needs to have a proper fit in the bore of the wheel or you won't get an accurate reading because of the slop.

I was really serious. Thanks for the explanation. It turns out I am doing exactly what you explained. I just had never heard of the term "Runout". I just called the procedure "out of round check"

For those who want a cheap way to check the wheel balance:
Put two "two-sided" razor blades, side by side into a PinkPearl erasor.
Cut a short piece of a rod (e.g. a nail with an OD large enough to be a tight fit thru the wheel bore) to a length of about 1 inch.
Put it into the wheel and set each end on the sharp edge of the razor. The heavy part of the wheel will instantly roll to the bottom. Pull the wheel, and either add weight to the top part, or using a Dremell, take off a bit of weight from the wheels inside. I did this with success for years until the magnetic balancers became available.

I had to Google "Pink Pearl Eraser"!

Do you guys think wheel balancing has much merit if the wheels are lathe trued inside and out?

I have some neodymium magnets, maybe I could rig up a magnetic balancer.........

 

[Kinser Racing]

The Guy started a thread on asking what tool you all prefer to check wheel run-out, and the answer is to purchase DD4H wheels?????? I joined this forum about a year ago, and most of the answers from the main members concerning new member question have been. Your lucky now to be racing, we have figured out all the work and you need to do the time and go through trial and aer. You need to earn information. Now this racer asks a question on a tool to learn things about wheels and do some testing him self and he gets buy DD4h Wheels??? I understand DD4H wheels are done right and true, but sounds like he want to work on wheels himself.

Not looking to fight or get ganged up on, he just wants to know of a tool for checking wheel run-out

Scott

Sorry to get you upset. You really should take it for what it is worth. There's no need for you to jump down my throat. John is the reason we have this place so I try to support him how I can. He really does have the best parts. I also said if it were me, that's what I would do. I try to help some guys that aren't familiar with in's and out's to keep it simple. That's all I was trying to do. I'm sorry I offended you.

 

[kpendle]

Since the topic has veered off a bit I will say before you go out and spend a ton of money on tools and stuff just buy the best parts and supplies from John. Work on your technique and get your feet wet with some league racing. If you know you have top notch parts to start if you are slow you know it is not because you have bad wheels or a poorly drilled block. My opinion is with less variables you can actually learn more quicker. Good technique with out of the box parts will overcome a crappy build with good parts.

If you have fun and it holds your interest then start getting more tools and take on more of the build yourself. Drill your own blocks, cut your own weight pockets and start experimenting. Ask questions and take your time so the stuff you do buy is of a long term value and you don't later regret it. I think most will say that taking your time and buying better quality items is better in the long term. Don't rush into it.

This year my son and I drilled his scout block, did the weight pockets, essentially did it all or as much as we could. I tried to go low budget and the time I wasted on a crappy drill press and getting it setup to drill decent holes. Breaking my carbide bit and wasting time drilling with a hss drill bit that I finally figured was not perfectly straight and having to get another carbide one and a host of other challenges. The experience lost a lot of the positive aspect. We would have saved a lot of $$ and time with a good pre-drilled block. We would have had more fun without the added frustration of dealing with crappy tools and learning how to use new tools. He watched the live racing and videos and saw what was fast and for car shape he chose "thin to win" with some fenders. We used the techniques we learned and even with strict rules and our marginally drilled block we were successful. His car won in his pack but it was not because we bought everything it was because we studied, did some league racing, and put in the effort.

My opinion is skip the dial indicator and start slow. Get a DD kit and see how you do and research more on the forums. As you get more knowledge figure out which tools you want to get and start building your shop. This could be considered the long winded version of what Kinser originally responded but I think it is great advice on his part, his was just in shorthand.

 

[Guest]

Hey KPendle,

Isn't that what Kinser said at the beginning of this thread except in less than 25 words?

Too late! We are down that road so let's keep traveling.

Hey Eccentric,

Collets eh? Do tell more!

So I pull out the 3 jaw chuck and slide in a collet with the correct taper?

I can't see the runout being less by running on injection molded edges.

I would rather file the jaws.

Thanks,

 

[chromegsx]

I wouldn't recommend jaw filing except for the most patient of people and most unacceptable tolerances...and warn that it might drive them mad. getting down to .001 or or just over seems easy enough with jaw filing from what I've experienced. but beyond that you might look at better paths to your goals. beyond .001...dirt and dust and it's movement among other things between re-chucking will be enough to drive you mad.

jaw filing for the unexperienced and resource challenged individual is by all means not reccommend, but how do you get experience without trying. If your up for the challenge go for it, but don't say you weren't warned of your visit to the mental hospital if your goals are greater than your equipment can handle.

Every solution has limitations...the tighter tolerances, the more limitations on acceptable tools and more expense. quality always comes at a cost. Everyone has different limits to their sanity and will either a) quit, b) spend more time, c) spend more money...not necessarily in that order, and may be a combination of 2 or all 3.

 

[Guest]

Hey Chrome,
Sorry. That was a bad joke. I agree that filing the jaws would have to be the last resort before tossing it into the garbage.
Hey Eccentric,
Are you talking about not even truing the OD of the wheels?
Just removing material from under the tread and leaving the OD untouched?

 

[chromegsx]

Hey Chrome, Sorry. That was a bad joke. I agree that filing the jaws would have to be the last resort before tossing it into the garbage.

Sorry I didn't get the joke. I missed the smileys or reference to sarcasm in your post. /images/boards/smilies/wink.gif /images/boards/smilies/cool.gif

 

[Guest]

Laser, I was thinking more along the lines of starting with cherry picked wheels with the lowest runout and turning them bad boys down. As far as collets, you got it- a taper the right size and you're in business. This is all new territory for me though, there are a bunch of pros here who have a much better understanding, hopefully they can chime in. I'm mainly learning this because it's intriguing and a rewarding challenge. The wheels will be used for testing purposes, not league racing. Using the Big Dogs wheels for racing the Big Dogs!

 

[Guest]

Hey Chrome, Sorry. That was a bad joke. I agree that filing the jaws would have to be the last resort before tossing it into the garbage.

Sorry I didn't get the joke. I missed the smileys or reference to sarcasm in your post. /images/boards/smilies/wink.gif /images/boards/smilies/cool.gif

I have a very dry wit and resort to smileys only in times of extremely harsh sarcasm.

 

[Guest]

Laser, I was thinking more along the lines of starting with cherry picked wheels with the lowest runout and turning them bad boys down. As far as collets, you got it- a taper the right size and you're in business. This is all new territory for me though, there are a bunch of pros here who have a much better understanding, hopefully they can chime in. I'm mainly learning this because it's intriguing and a rewarding challenge. The wheels will be used for testing purposes, not league racing. Using the Big Dogs wheels for racing the Big Dogs!

Dunno,
You seem very modest about your insights into this stuff.
What is the point of cherry picking though. If the wheel is to be trued on the OD anyway then would the runout of the wheel then not equal the runout of the lathe anyway?
The edge on those Cheetahs is fierce!

 

[Kinser Racing]

Since the topic has veered off a bit I will say before you go out and spend a ton of money on tools and stuff just buy the best parts and supplies from John. Work on your technique and get your feet wet with some league racing. If you know you have top notch parts to start if you are slow you know it is not because you have bad wheels or a poorly drilled block. My opinion is with less variables you can actually learn more quicker. Good technique with out of the box parts will overcome a crappy build with good parts.

If you have fun and it holds your interest then start getting more tools and take on more of the build yourself. Drill your own blocks, cut your own weight pockets and start experimenting. Ask questions and take your time so the stuff you do buy is of a long term value and you don't later regret it. I think most will say that taking your time and buying better quality items is better in the long term. Don't rush into it.

This year my son and I drilled his scout block, did the weight pockets, essentially did it all or as much as we could. I tried to go low budget and the time I wasted on a crappy drill press and getting it setup to drill decent holes. Breaking my carbide bit and wasting time drilling with a hss drill bit that I finally figured was not perfectly straight and having to get another carbide one and a host of other challenges. The experience lost a lot of the positive aspect. We would have saved a lot of $$ and time with a good pre-drilled block. We would have had more fun without the added frustration of dealing with crappy tools and learning how to use new tools. He watched the live racing and videos and saw what was fast and for car shape he chose "thin to win" with some fenders. We used the techniques we learned and even with strict rules and our marginally drilled block we were successful. His car won in his pack but it was not because we bought everything it was because we studied, did some league racing, and put in the effort.

My opinion is skip the dial indicator and start slow. Get a DD kit and see how you do and research more on the forums. As you get more knowledge figure out which tools you want to get and start building your shop. This could be considered the long winded version of what Kinser originally responded but I think it is great advice on his part, his was just in shorthand.

Outstanding explanation! I'm not a very good at typing so I try to be quick and to the point. Thank you!

 

[Guest]

LOL!

Great explanation indeed Kpendle.

I was just having laugh.

 

[Guest]

Laser, I'm not very familiar with turning wide wheels, only the narrow Royal style. I've ruined quite a few trying though. Some of my techniques are probably wrong or could be improved so I don't want to go into to much detail and steer some kids dad down the wrong road.